MrBen

Chino's?

There is nothing so graceful as dignified silence...for it speaks more than words may ever.

Keef Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Are the public services more inclined to employ > those with disabilities, thus leaving themselves > open to more sickness absence? Correct Keef - this was mentioned earlier, along with more female employees (in the NHS) who are also more likely to take time off for family responsibilities. Both are very good points likely to contribute to a higher rate. But to summarise, does this forum feel that these extremely valid points, combined with all of the good contributory factors posted above, leave a rate of "duvet days" no higher than the private sector? Back at my old place (MSW NHS Trust HQ and St Georges) one of many examples was systematic abuse of a generous sick pay policy at the time of 6 months full pay followed by 6 months half pay. One lady, a clerical manager, had taken 6 months off due to stress only to return two days before her six months were up to reset the clock and then take the next 6 months off. She was still absent when I left a year later, yet on full pay of about ?30K. A good sick pay policy is an important benefit of security to those who need it but it also surely needs to have weight to address those who may be seen to abuse it. If this is now no longer thanks to efficient "back to work" interviews introduced in 2004 then I stand down in my argument - for the NHS has cured any higher rate of dishonest absenteeism - and my dragons have been slain!

I'm quite impressed with the new Virgin Media with it's great on demand, BBC iplayer, Virgin + box, HD stuff etc. But I still feel like my Dad in 1982 when he bought a top of the range BetaMax. I have Sky envy. Which is best?

I think you'll love it Keef. Grab a copy at Apollo or it's currently showing on Virgin Media on demand (if, like me you have the poor man's Sky)

And this

Please keep on topic Sean. Glad to see you are also a fan of the bearded one though.

Watched - Anvil! The story of Anvil last night. Great little rock doc and with commentary from the great Slash who played with them at the Sundance premiere. And heart warming too. 8.5/10

Wow. If I was as "right on" and humourless as some of the Guardian subscribers on the NHS thread I might take offence to the sweaty tag, compare you to a racists, complain to admin etc etc and start demanding an apology! Instead can I remind you that Scotsmen invented the telephone, the television, Alex Salmond and the Barry Barry run. The first two you may have found useful on occasion - and for the latter - my sincere apologies. Jah - an awesome choice with Raw Spirit which only confirms your status as a man of taste. It's a cult read amongst my pals back home and I have a much treasured dog eared copy signed by the great man himself.

Hmmmm....I didn't say that ALL 1.5M people who work for the NHS are skivers Tim, - as that would clearly be both wrong and ridiculous....but I witnessed a higher than average number who were happy to take a day off every other week without good reason on full pay and without serious challenge and these were the "skivers" whom I refer to. And yes - having worked both sides of the fence, it was a lot worse than I've seen than anywhere I've worked in the private sector so I think I'm allowed to suggest it's a serious contributory problem? Perhaps my personal experience does not reflect the bigger picture (which many of you have pointed out) - if so I stand corrected and the problem of sickness dishonesty in the NHS and wider public sector is no worse than anywhere else given the many environmental and social factors given above.

Whoa there annaJ - I see lots of that finger wagging BBW was on about! I don't think, if you read back carefully, I meant that YOU specifically or personally were "shrill". I then apologised for any offence caused in the OP by my wording which aimed to start a debate (a style if we're honest was no worse than any LBC or Radio 2 phone in) . I then followed up with some much needed clarification ( I'll try harder to be more sensitive next time with my OP) and have also restated my complete and genuine respect for the serious and hard work that you and many other NHS staff do daily. And I thought we had, until your post above, restarted a reasonable debate - so do you accept my apology for any offence caused to you personally? And if so might we be able to move on now?

Was on best man duties at a wedding last year with the lead singer of this once famous boy band from Croydon who attempted to cover and dance Incredibly their version charted higher (at no 4. in UK) than the Jacksons original which says a lot about where music was at in 1989.

Not been able to give thread my this full attention but skimming over the latest (and calmer) posts - I think good points well put from Mr Carnell re Private sector, Lulu again and some fresh perspective and common sense from Timster. I'm not one bit upset at any of the flack I/quids took- I expected it (well most of it) and if nothing else it surely it shows we ALL care. I also think posing a provocative question is not, surely, a bad thing in any forum of debate (even with the NHS as subject matter) but I will definitely be rather more specific in my arguments next time to avoid anyone taking it as personally as some have. I stand by my experience of poor staff behaviour witnessed during my own NHS stint and other non NHS PS work - though I have to admit it was one of the most fun and rewarding jobs I've ever had. They even had a subsidised staff canteen where you got fish and chips for ?1.30 and Sponge and Custard for 75p - classic school dinners - sadly amiss in places I work now. But (not talking specifically NHS here) I've always thought there surely has to be a hybrid. An economic model that combines the best of private sector efficiency and productivity with the ethics and social equalities found in many parts of the public sector. And where the benefactor of "profit" is a common social good rather than personal shareholder profit. And such models do exist outside the public sector domain and the number of such initiatives like this one are slowly starting to grow- it's called Social Enterprise - and I find the prospect wholly and utterly exciting. But I guess that will be a subject for another thread.....

Sorry Chief - now got a date in Brixton. Enjoy the famous red kryptonite - it doubles as a Barium meal if you get the heat right.

My guess is broadly inline with Casper and quids. Speed of rate hikes is critical - too fast and we risk the so called double dip and too slow and we won't get anywhere. With a general election coming up no government is going to want to rock the boat either before and especially after. Whether BOE set the rates independently or not. So taking a wild stab - rate increases to start in Feb 2010 after the "we're over the worst" data is felt in early spring-slowly increasing slowly into 2011 and peaking at around 5-6% base for this cycle. With mortgage rates up to 8% which is enough to start hurting and likely to keep housing depressed / stagnant for another 5 years.

Come on.I was only trying to lighten the tone Mockney.You know I appreciate forum admin is voluntary. And my earlier post - I hope gets firmly back to the debate. Sean apologies for fictionalising your commute in can we call a truce on this one? Edited for the benefit of a return to constructive debate.

I did chuckle at the magic first miraculous appearance of The Chair this morning though! I can almost see Sean texting Mockers furiously on the 40 in this morning "Help who's on duty for this one? Help me out!" Interesting that The Chair has yet to actually intervene which means that: A- The debate to date, whilst heated, has been fair and square and within broad rules of the Drawing Room or B- They got the chair rota mixed up, or someones caught napping or C- The Chair was skiving! Anyway welcome Chair.

Sean- I hope you won't mind if I do take your advice and ignore your out of character hissy fit above to get back to some constructive debate now that it's started? Can I also kindly ignore your undeniable misquotes, insinuations, poorly judged comparisons to a racist and your rather odd paranoia that myself or Quids are pursuing a hidden private sector political agenda with this thread at a time when the NHS is under international focus in "this week of all weeks"? And can I once again confirm my genuine respect for those in the NHS who have been good enough to post a view here based on their first hand experience without you suggesting otherwise, instead portraying me as some fat, rich non-dom right winger when in fact I'm just a normal hard working middle class guy, of middle politics, who CARES about our NHS. you want for nothing too Mr Shiny new Playstation 7 kettle barbecue triple cooked chips. To you, today, I say "go forth and dust your William Rose ribs with Paprika". Ok with you Sir? Can we please please now focus back on the debate? Here are some facts from the report, which yes I have read - not all 103 pages admittedly, but enough. - NHS staff take on average 10.7 days a year sick leave. This compares to the wider public sector average of 9.7 days. - Private sector employees average 6.4 days per year. - Unless my maths are mistaken that represents roughly a 50% increase or multiple of 1.5 times on the private sector rate. - Were the NHS sickness rate to drop by a third in line or just above private sector it would generate an extra 3.4 million working days per year or direct cost savings of ?555 million I stand by my belief that that is worth a discussion and I accept and acknowledge that the contributory factors to staff well being raised by AnnaJ, the lovely Buggie, Lulu and Brum all surely contribute to this excessive rate. But I also believe that there is a problem with the rate of dishonest sickies thrown by lifestyle staffers across the board and that you'll never ever get hard facts (to get exactly how much of that 50% excess) to support this because of the politics,practicalities, hit to morale and subjectivity involved. Yet it's not good enough to ignore it because huge - as in literally NHS changing sums of money - are involved. It's the Great Unspoken in the public sector. And yes whilst my time in the NHS was I agree "nothing special" I was appalled at what I saw in the four institutions I worked in. An experience which, with the recent report from a respected Occupational Health doctor prompted me to start this thread. As Keef and LuLu correctly point out, Labour introduced much tighter controls for monitoring staff absence in 2004 to address the problem but I question whether these have worked given the 2009 rate is largely unchanged. I thank those who have kindly contributed with their own current NHS experience, much at the sharp end of patient care and who don't see any issue with absentee dishonesty or those staff taking a free ride. I realise the slightest whiff of such an accusation is enough to make blood boil if you're doing 65 hour weeks, saving lives with little thanks. But to suggest that it's not a serious problem in certain areas is simply not true. Tackling staff welfare /lifestyle / health support was the politically correct focus of Dr Boorman's report but it's clearly only one end of the stick. Is it not time the NHS started to pull its weight and tackle the other?

Still - it's provoked some debate and rankled a few with postings now second only to the Is there a God thread. Almost as much chance of finding hard stats for that one too! Whatever comes next I will now gracefully bow out having expressed an honest view and my apologies to those genuinely hard working NHS staff out there who may have taken umbrage. *Tips bowler hat. Leaves Drawing Room for pizza at The Gowlett*

Sean - you know this is a place for reasoned debate. You may not agree with my views on this one nor the style in which I've used here but so be it. Nor have I misquoted you - and in fact when did I ever say this? " you are the creme de la creme but your colleagues in the back room let the side down...". Are you attempting to misquote me? I have a huge amount of respect for hard working NHS staff and you should know that given my time seriously ill in hospital in 2006. But why should I not also be able to take a view on certain NHS workings, challenge those who might have a different view and present them here for discussion?

Don't give up AnnaJ. What "hard" evidence would you expect to see for skiving? And how would it have been collected? I don't think it's feasible. Other than the strength of real life experience what else have we got to rely on? Your equally valid view is that the 50% difference is almost entirely down working conditions. I don't agree and so I guess we'll have to kindly disagree on that which is fine.

Whilst this thread focuses on the NHS, wider public sector data IS relevant. Because previous surveys and dataindicate that an absence rate of +50% is common across public office. Which doesn't exactly support the supposedly NHS specific contributory factors to absence outlined above. Sean thinks it?s because the NHS is too big, Keef thinks it?s targets, AnnaJ heavy lifting and stress and Lulu ? a combination of all of the above. I?m not dismissing these. I fully accept that conditions in frontline public heath care can be tough. But it is patronizing for you AnnaJ, to suggest that as the ?junior IT guy? at the start of my career I?m somehow ill qualified to understand or to comment on this working environment when I was required to support all functions ? from A&E trauma to the various outpatient clinics ? perform shift work and multiple locations for 2.5 years in public sector (1 NHS, 1.5 in Sydney). How can you dismiss that? Tough environments to earn a crust in? Yes. But? they can also a cushy number for those removed from the necessities of front line action (back office functions = approx half the NHS payroll) with a less than honorable work ethic. And don?t expect to see this portion of the NHS or PS workforce posting here to admit it. Appreciate my lack of "generosity of spirit" here but I'm only being direct and honest. And what documented stats do we have to support my suggestion of widespread dishonest absenteeism? Well none. And therein lies the problem. How would you expect anyone to feasibly gather the data? And after incurring the wrath and protective self interest of middle management and the trade unions how would you practically get an independent doctor in to verify every claim to prove it? Instead we are left to console ourselves with the impotent yet valid anecdotal evidence of many, a massive loss to the tax payer (and to end patient care), and always the misplaced, shrill indignation from the genuinely hardworking NHS staff who miss the point and rush to the defense of the Sacred Cow at the slightest challenge. Focus on improving working conditions, diet, etc by all means but until the take it easy culture that prevents large parts of the public sector from pulling its full weight is addressed we?re always going to pay heavily for it.

Nice post Lulu and informative. Thanks. And you are the first to calmly address my original question about learnings from the private sector and what could be done - without the knee jerk hysteria from BN5 which I thought was not entirely proportional to the admittedly rather provocative manner in which I presented the case. Also appreciate the fact that you have not called me " a dick" for even daring to suggest that large parts of the NHS are plagued with dishonest absentees - yes skivers- and that tax payers might have an issue with this. Why should we all just accept it? I've found some other stats from 2005 survey that indicate a sickness rate of about 50% more is indicative of the wider public sector costing the economy ?4.1 billion which casts doubt over specifics to the NHS such as higher concentration of viruses in the workplace (although it does mention long term working conditions are generally poorer). And if we're honest, surely heavy lifting, whilst also a factor, is a task not entirely exclusive to hospital workers?! It's good to hear that there are new procedures in place for monitoring the problem but this report and these stats are recent, and if correct perhaps the fruits of these new efforts are yet to be seen. I suspect it may take longer to change something so deeply ingrained into public service culture. But I hope not.

The Chief has advised that it will be at East Dulwich Tandoori at 8pm with a sharpener at the EDT from 7pm. I am hoping to come as ED Tandoori has the brightest most glowing red tikka massala sauce on the strip. It's like red kryptonite. All hail The Chief.

I think we are talking about consistent, systematic absenteeism here - not the odd cheeky Monday in a year. We may have overlooked TLS's earlier post but I think his public sector experience here is typical - there are areas of the NHS where if you don't take a certain number of sick days it's almost frowned upon. Why should we keep paying for this? And can we not adopt some private sector practice to deal with it?