Earl Aelfheah

Can you explain that... How leaving the EU will lead to an increase in social housing?

@louisa - There are plenty of folk who are anti-immigration across the political / class spectrum. To paint immigration as primarily a northern, 'working class' obsession is to do those people a disservice and is not reflective of the reality.

Sorry, crossed posted ^ that was in response to Lou's post.

Well that depends on what you think will happen. If the economy suffers (as I believe it will), then brexit may well lead to a further deterioration in public services. Immigration keeps public services going for crying out loud. ...and it's wrong to suggest that this view is the sole preserve of some imagined metropolitan elite.

Also, to be clear, I was just reporting some reactions iv'e encountered in relation to the rhetoric around immigration. They surprised me tbh, but equally you cannot dismiss people's feelings on the other side of the debate. That was my point.

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > What I find more depressing is people sat in their > ivory tower in London feeling sad about the > rhetoric surrounding immigration, which of course > further reinforces the view in the poorest regions > that the political elite in this city are totally > out of touch with the rest of the country. Try > telling a family who have been sat on the housing > waiting list for years in Derby or Preston that > it's sad we are talking about immigration all the > time. Some people may well feel we aren't talking > about it enough. > > Louisa. That assumes that the failure of successive governments to build social housing, whilst selling off the stock we have is in fact the fault of immigrants, which I disagree with. I would happily tell those people that I think their anger is misdirected and that in my view we need to refocus the debate towards the real cause of their problems. Of course they may disagree, but I stand by my view.

Jeremy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > rahrahrah Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > No one is brushing the topic of immigration > under > > the carpet. We hear this all the time... "you > > can't talk about immigration". It's nonsense, > it's > > discussed endlessly > > It's a taboo subject within liberal circles > though... specifically because there will always > be one worthier-than-thou person who is offended > by a balanced discussion. I've not found that personally, but perhaps i'm mixing in the wrong circles ;-)

LadyNorwood Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > In any other country it would be called > patriotism, in this country it's xenophobia.... They're different things. You can be incredibly proud of your country, (for reasons which may even include it's openness to the world, to trade and people from other places). Being fearful of foreigners has nothing to do with patriotism.

Leaving the EU won't actually address issues of immigration. If we try to do a Swiss / Norwegian type trade deal in order to regain access to the single market, we'll have to accept free movement anyway. People will of course move around Europe if they can and they'll go where the jobs are, but that of course is also where the demand for labour is too.

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think Jeremy makes a valid point. Here in > London, certain people do not wish to confront the > issue of immigration because it goes against their > utopian left of field view of the world. The > reality of course is, whether you agree it is a > valid concern or not, when you're living in a nice > comfy London bubble away from regions with high > unemployment, social and political > disenfranchisement, and a lack of a future you > will start blaming specific groups- that of course > is unfounded and disproportionate in the minds of > fairly well off London guardian readers - but > that's how these people feel on the street. Rather > than mock them and suggest their opinion is > ignorant and not relevant, I believe it is better > to address their concerns and speak openly about > them rather than brush them under the carpet. > > Louisa. No one is brushing the topic of immigration under the carpet. We hear this all the time... "you can't talk about immigration". It's nonsense, it's discussed endlessly, to the point where it receives a completely disproportionate amount of attention.

I do find the anti immigration rhetoric pretty depressing. I have two friends in particular, who can barely bring themselves to talk about it, they are so upset. It may sound OTT, but you can see that they're genuinely shocked and hurt by the strength of anti immigration feeling. They have taken it very personally and no longer feel welcome in the UK (perhaps they're not). It's really horrible.

Jeremy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Well immigration has put increased pressure on > public services - housing in particular. Has it? Immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take out. So they are contributing to the public purse. It's up to the government to decide how to spend that money and how much to put into public services. Anyone who thinks that in a post Brexit recession, a Gove and Boris government will be investing more into public services is barking up the wrong tree.

Jeremy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Anti-immigration sentiment is not always a > straight case of racism. If I was in need of > social housing and there was none available, I'd > probably be anti-immigration to an extent. Those > of us in privileged positions often tend to just > see the more positive sides of immigration... I wasn't suggesting this. Now that you bring it up though, I do think there is a degree of xenophobic english nationalism at play.

So looks like Hilary has clinched the Democratic nomination. I really hope the party can now unify behind its candidate and defeat Trump. Scary times.

... Plus the fact that if we're to re-enter the single market post exit, there will still need to be agreement on free movement of people of course.

I agree with rendleharris- whilst it's clearly not the only issue, immigration seems to be the one that's gained most traction on the leave side. If we do exit it will probably be anti immigration sentiment that will have carried the day. The problem of course, is that those who are voting for a significant reduction in the numbers of people coming to the UK are likely to be very disappointed with what happens following an out vote. Most of the economic forecasts for post Brexit have assumed that immigration remains relatively high. As most of our immigration currently comes from outside Europe and is itself in the hundreds of thousands there is little chance of it suddenly being bought down to levels that many 'Leavers' want to see. So either we'll continue to have relatively high levels of immigration, or there will be even more strain on the economy and further deteriation in public services. Either way, it's hard to understand what is achieved. If people believe there will be more housing, higher wages, or more school places I believe they're going to be disappointed. Personally, i think we'll see a lot of discontent, from those who are being sold a totally false prospectus from some very cynical careerists I the Conservative party.

Jeez, this is depressing

I really want to hear a cogent argument for leave.

http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexitvote/2016/05/27/dear-friends-this-is-why-i-will-vote-remain-in-the-referendum/

So if you think the EU has problems (I agree), how does Brexit help? Unless we are to stop trading with the EU, we'll still have to deal with it, still have to abide by EU regulations, but we'll have no voting rights and no influence on its future direction. Exit doesn't achieve reform, it hampers it.

@thecat - that's not a strong economic argument in favour of Brexit though. you seem to be saying that there will be a negative economic impact, but that it may be relatively short lived. Do you think long term we'll be financially better off and if so, why and on what evidence?

Immigration does seem to be the issue which has the most traction for the leave campaign though.

I haven't heard a convincing economic argument for Brexit. The idea that we'll get a better deal following a vote to leave, (that all 27 member states will agree to our re-entering the single market, with full access, but exempted from the regulations which govern it) really does strike me as deluded. On immigration there are some more reasoned arguments (although I disagree with them). It is self-evident that free movement goes hand in hand with membership of a single market and if you think this a bad thing then maybe one could consider the economic pain worth it, to restrict movement in and out of Europe. Of course this completely negates the benefits UK citizens get from free movement, the fact that 1.2 million people born in the UK live in other EU countries and that we all have the opportunity to travel and work anywhere within the EU. But again, I can see that some might consider this worth losing if they feel strongly enough about immigration in. Personally though, I take issue with the whole premise that immigration is a problem. The view that immigration is straining public services seems to ignore the fact that the NHS is kept afloat by immigrant labour (by doctors and nurses from overseas), and that, as a net contributor to the economy, helps fund public services in the first place. The truth is that the level of public service provision is a matter of public policy. Moves to cut immigration and pull out of the single market are very unlikely to lead to better public services in my opinion. Neither is it plausible that Gove and Boris are truly advocating investing heavily in the public sector with or without Brexit, which just makes their claims on the topic incredibly cynical. But even if you are ?anti immigration?, it is by no means a given that post-Brexit, immigration levels will come down significantly. The claim often made, that it is the EU which is preventing immigration coming down to the 'tens of thousands' is not true. The majority of immigration to the UK comes from outside the EU (which is entirely within our control) and is itself in the hundreds of thousands. Personally, I just haven?t heard an argument which convinces me we will benefit from ?Brexit?.

FFS

I am intrigued genuinely. Does anyone think we'll end up with better trade terms following an exit? What do you think we'll get- full access to the single market without having to comply with product standards for example?