Earl Aelfheah

This is an important vote. I hope people vote on the substance and not as a petty way of 'getting back' at people they don't like or feel may have offended them.

Come on Louisa, you sneer more than most, let's be honest. I dont' really get the objection LadyNorwood. No one is being 'told what to do', they have a choice. It's perfectly reasonable for people to express their opinion however, even where it may differ from your own.

Where is it you think patriotism is being wrongly identified?

Isla White

The Democrats need to unify (regardless of whether one feels Hiliary was the right choice or not) and turn their focus to stopping Trump.

White Dog

honky

angel dust?

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/07/thousands-eu-referendum-postal-votes-feared-lost-germany Would be ironic if the vote was lost as a result of under regulation by the EU.

Fair enough, I suspect that we will see significant downswing in the economy and likely an extension to austerity. I suspect immigration will remain fairly high if it drops at all (in my view no bad thing) and if it doesn't there will be further damage to the economy. If so there will be further deterioration in public services. But this of course is the judgment everyone will have to make for themselves.

So Lou, do you think that post Brexit we'll see more investment in public services? What kind of fall do you think they'll be in immigration numbers? What would you like to see?

Can you explain that... How leaving the EU will lead to an increase in social housing?

@louisa - There are plenty of folk who are anti-immigration across the political / class spectrum. To paint immigration as primarily a northern, 'working class' obsession is to do those people a disservice and is not reflective of the reality.

Sorry, crossed posted ^ that was in response to Lou's post.

Well that depends on what you think will happen. If the economy suffers (as I believe it will), then brexit may well lead to a further deterioration in public services. Immigration keeps public services going for crying out loud. ...and it's wrong to suggest that this view is the sole preserve of some imagined metropolitan elite.

Also, to be clear, I was just reporting some reactions iv'e encountered in relation to the rhetoric around immigration. They surprised me tbh, but equally you cannot dismiss people's feelings on the other side of the debate. That was my point.

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > What I find more depressing is people sat in their > ivory tower in London feeling sad about the > rhetoric surrounding immigration, which of course > further reinforces the view in the poorest regions > that the political elite in this city are totally > out of touch with the rest of the country. Try > telling a family who have been sat on the housing > waiting list for years in Derby or Preston that > it's sad we are talking about immigration all the > time. Some people may well feel we aren't talking > about it enough. > > Louisa. That assumes that the failure of successive governments to build social housing, whilst selling off the stock we have is in fact the fault of immigrants, which I disagree with. I would happily tell those people that I think their anger is misdirected and that in my view we need to refocus the debate towards the real cause of their problems. Of course they may disagree, but I stand by my view.

Jeremy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > rahrahrah Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > No one is brushing the topic of immigration > under > > the carpet. We hear this all the time... "you > > can't talk about immigration". It's nonsense, > it's > > discussed endlessly > > It's a taboo subject within liberal circles > though... specifically because there will always > be one worthier-than-thou person who is offended > by a balanced discussion. I've not found that personally, but perhaps i'm mixing in the wrong circles ;-)

LadyNorwood Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > In any other country it would be called > patriotism, in this country it's xenophobia.... They're different things. You can be incredibly proud of your country, (for reasons which may even include it's openness to the world, to trade and people from other places). Being fearful of foreigners has nothing to do with patriotism.

Leaving the EU won't actually address issues of immigration. If we try to do a Swiss / Norwegian type trade deal in order to regain access to the single market, we'll have to accept free movement anyway. People will of course move around Europe if they can and they'll go where the jobs are, but that of course is also where the demand for labour is too.

Louisa Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think Jeremy makes a valid point. Here in > London, certain people do not wish to confront the > issue of immigration because it goes against their > utopian left of field view of the world. The > reality of course is, whether you agree it is a > valid concern or not, when you're living in a nice > comfy London bubble away from regions with high > unemployment, social and political > disenfranchisement, and a lack of a future you > will start blaming specific groups- that of course > is unfounded and disproportionate in the minds of > fairly well off London guardian readers - but > that's how these people feel on the street. Rather > than mock them and suggest their opinion is > ignorant and not relevant, I believe it is better > to address their concerns and speak openly about > them rather than brush them under the carpet. > > Louisa. No one is brushing the topic of immigration under the carpet. We hear this all the time... "you can't talk about immigration". It's nonsense, it's discussed endlessly, to the point where it receives a completely disproportionate amount of attention.

I do find the anti immigration rhetoric pretty depressing. I have two friends in particular, who can barely bring themselves to talk about it, they are so upset. It may sound OTT, but you can see that they're genuinely shocked and hurt by the strength of anti immigration feeling. They have taken it very personally and no longer feel welcome in the UK (perhaps they're not). It's really horrible.

Jeremy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Well immigration has put increased pressure on > public services - housing in particular. Has it? Immigrants contribute more to the economy than they take out. So they are contributing to the public purse. It's up to the government to decide how to spend that money and how much to put into public services. Anyone who thinks that in a post Brexit recession, a Gove and Boris government will be investing more into public services is barking up the wrong tree.

Jeremy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Anti-immigration sentiment is not always a > straight case of racism. If I was in need of > social housing and there was none available, I'd > probably be anti-immigration to an extent. Those > of us in privileged positions often tend to just > see the more positive sides of immigration... I wasn't suggesting this. Now that you bring it up though, I do think there is a degree of xenophobic english nationalism at play.

So looks like Hilary has clinched the Democratic nomination. I really hope the party can now unify behind its candidate and defeat Trump. Scary times.