mikeb

Until I replaced some of my wiring, I wasn't able to get any HD channels and quite a few others had disappeared as well. As TED says, how many channels you actually get is not to do with how many are broadcast.

In case anyone wants to take up John's challenge: Relevant part of map http://booth.lse.ac.uk/cgi-bin/do.pl?sub=view_booth_and_barth&m.l=0&m.d.l=0&m.p.x=10668&m.p.y=11223&m.p.w=500&m.p.h=309&m.p.l=0&m.t.w=128&m.t.h=80&b.p.x=18542&b.p.y=17150&b.p.w=500&b.p.h=309&b.p.l=1&m.move.leftup.x=3&m.move.leftup.y=2 Notebook for area west of Lordship Lane http://booth.lse.ac.uk/notebooks/b375/jpg/40.html Notebook for area east of Lordship Lane http://booth.lse.ac.uk/notebooks/b375/jpg/53.html Fascinating reading.

More context: London-wide sewer map from 1930. John - the larger map shows the Effra sewer going both ways, north through Brixton and east through Dulwich. The colour code on the map shows the Effra sewer to "pre-1856" i.e. earlier than the East Dulwich sewer (1859). Also, the Effra sewer diverges from the course of Effra at Herne Hill e.g. this map of 1864 which shows the a watercourse alongside Croxted Rd and also one south of Half Moon Road which joins back up with Croxted Road. http://london1864.com/stanford66.htm http://london1864.com/stanford71.htm So I don't think you can interpret this as showing the Effra stream itself running through East Dulwich. Mike

Following a revamp of my wiring, I get 98 TV and I think about 20 radio. I was quite pleased with that before I saw your 116 channels and I'm now wondering what delights I'm missing.

Not sure about the reliability of those maps - the Guardian one shows a vehicle crash on Milo Road, which if true demonstrates that there are some accidents that nothing can prevent, not even limiting the length of road to just 10m.

Uncleglen - agree with you re Townley Road crossing. My missus was almost knocked down the other night when someone went straight through the red light. No time to get the numberplate unfortunately. On a similar vein, after many years of perservering. I now no longer use the Goodrich / Heber junctions with Lordship Lane - you just can't see round the parked traffic, particularly when there is a van or 4WD there.

Shorty - is any chance you could post a bigger / more detailed version of that postcard please? It would be great to see the old ED and Dulwich skyline more clearly. Thanks Mike

Really interesting but unsourced for the most part? I couldn't find some of the maps cited - ever seen a large scale copy of Morgan's map? Brook Drive half finished here, in Snow's map of around 1818. Looks a little like part of the stream remains above ground. This also shows just how marshy Bermondsey was between Old Kent Road and the docks. http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/snow/1818map/3_5c.htm#upperleft

basing this on how it's described in the map? note the "common sewer" in St John's land - maybe just the term the mapmaker was using for small streams? Are any of the other rivers shown e.g. Falcon, Wandle, Tyburn? Also, half his land is described as "clay fields" (where Claylands Rd is now) - not exactly flattering to the good lord either?

Also, where is the Peck shown on this map?

I enjoyed this and it's nicely filmed. But I didn't think the guy was sufficiently charming

Maybe this is just a quirk of the limited objective of the map but where did the sewer in North Peckham drain into? Just seems to stop ...

John Do you have the rest of the map northwards? Would be interesting to compare against the picture of the Earl's Sluice / Neckinger you've been building up. MikeB

Some more http://www23.us.archive.org/stream/sketchesofsouthw00bowe/sketchesofsouthw00bowe_djvu.txt ([p69) Set in the base of the wall separating the ladder makers from Bethlem Hospital in the Lambeth Road is another stone. At this spot Lord George Gordon, in 1780, marshalled his " No Popery " legions, prior to his presenting his Anti-Catholic petition to the House of Commons. The St. George's Fields' boundary from this stone is along the rear of the houses in Kennington Road, by way of Brook Street along the line of the filled-in parish brook to a pillar in Miss Sharman's Home in Austral Street, whereon are boundary plates of St. George's Parish dated 181 8 and 1844 respectively, and a stone of Lambeth Parish of 1850. This brook flowed on from here and emptied itself into the river Tigris, said to be a part of Knut's canal, and which ran at the back of the Newington National Schools. When Knut found that he could not get his boats past London Bridge he caused a canal to be cut through the south marshes so that he might invest the City on all sides, and by preventing the entry of supplies, facilitate its reduc- tion. This w r ater-course commenced where the Commercial Docks now are, to the east of the Parish of Rotherhithe, continuing its course westward through Rotherhithe, passing St. Thomas-a- Watering, proceeding a little to the south-east of the Lock Hospital at the end of Kent Street, thence to Newington Butts, where it intersected the road by the schools, whence, continuing its course by the Black Prince at Kennington, it ran west-by-south through Vauxhall to its influx into the Thames at Chelsea Reach. About ten or fifteen years ago the framework of a ship was discovered when digging some foundations near the old St. Helena Gardens, Rotherhithe. I should think it probable, writes Mr. Coles, in an interesting letter to me, that the whole swamp or marsh was intersected with ditches and minor waterways, just as the Isle of Thanet was when the ships could come into the Thames between Thanet and Sheppey. Brayley, in his History of Surrey, states that early in the nineteenth century a parishioner of Newington named Farns remembered when boats came up as far as the church. Midway between the Elephant and Castle and the church was a small one- arched bridge, the repairs to which in 1691 were recorded on the above stone let into the wall of the Fishmongers' Almshouses. The turnpike was here crossed by a ford. It is thought by my friend Mr. Coles and others that the Tigris only went a short distance past this bridge.

John This map shows the discontinuity more clearly. http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~genmaps/genfiles/COU_files/ENG/SRY/genmag_thames-sryside_1766.html But this one by Roque suggests that the streams do link up - plate 53 (but also check out Ref 273) http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=65449 I do think the stream running SE from the Dog and Duck does look like a stream, not a ditch. It hits Newington Butts by the almshouses so perhaps there is something relevant in their records, e.g. of construction. This would also fit with the roadname Brook Drive. Interesting reference here to boats sailing down to Newington Butts but not clear from which direction! http://www.archive.org/stream/curiositiesoflon00timbrich/curiositiesoflon00timbrich_djvu.txt (p 187) St. Mary's, Newington-butts, was built in 1791-^3 by Hurlbatt, in place of a smaller church. It contains a monument with statues to Sir Hugh Brawne, buried in the old church, 1614, and who " for the space of twenty-two years was the whole ornament of the parish." Here, too, is a tablet to Dr. Fothergillj and to Captain M. Waghorn, one of the few persons who escaped from the sinking of the Royal George, in 1782. The parsonage-house was originally built of wood, and surrounded by a moat, now filled up. In this parish was a small water-course called the river Tigris, part of Cnut's trench ; and a parishioner who died at the age of 109 years, early in the present century, remembered when boats came up as far as the church at Newington. Mike [edited to confirm that the profanity filter has issues with the name of a great norse king famous for demonstrating his inability to hold back the tide]

John Depends which bit you're looking at but June 1770 not a bad guess for the NW section. Looking at the Roque map 1749 http://www.motco.com/map/003/imageone-a.asp?Picno=80002003 the NW sections are fairly clear and look more like a stream from the ponds at Dog & Duck along Brook Drive than a drainage ditch, though as Hugenot says, in an area as marshy as Lambeth the difference is moot. The central section looks a little vague. The NE sections look enclosed as the area developed. I would propose that the NW sections were formalised when St George's fields were developed by 4 June 1770. See (a) map immediately before development, showing the same streams as in 1749 http://www.ideal-homes.org.uk/__data/assets/image/0020/304436/01292-1994.jpg (b) description of the building works http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=65443 Some of the primary sources cited may be able to help. I note the owner of the Dog & Duck seemed to have a well. Mike

There is one outside the Tate Modern but couldn't tell you if it was Wenlock or Mandeville

I seem to remember that someone on this forum mentioned that this shop had some sort of restrictive covenant that it could only be an off-licence, or was it that the freeholder required this? Maybe also that they required the lessee to live above. I can't find this thread now though

Steve O - some more background on Troy Town (search within the links below for "Troy Town" - watch out, these are very large files). Your understanding seems to be correct - there is a connection to mazes, though with contrasting stories of Trojans or the Anglo-Saxon word for twist / turn. Troy Town is not shown on this 1832 map - Troy Town would have been directly underneath "Peckham Rye Square". http://www.motco.com/map/81003/SeriesSearchPlatesFullb.asp?mode=query&artist=385&other=753&x=11&y=11 But Troy Town is clearly shown on the 1864 map http://london1864.com/stanford67b.htm Mike (edited to get links to work) ==== background on mazes and Troy Towns ---------- http://www.archive.org/stream/s8notesqueries04londuoft/s8notesqueries04londuoft_djvu.txt http://www.archive.org/stream/archaeologicaljo15brit/archaeologicaljo15brit_djvu.txt

John - great stuff as always. But which Rocque map are you talking about? I couldn't see much on 1769 here http://maps.southwark.gov.uk/connect/Includes/Historical%20map%20scans/200dpi/John%20Rocques%20A%20Plan%20of%20London%201766.pdf Mike

Goose Green pond still visible in Standfords 1864 map - a nicely coloured version here: http://london1864.com/stanford67.htm Other water features in the area are around the gardens of Charlton House (wonder how far this is from Peckham Rye Park pond?) and near Townley Road.

Thanks James, I have now.

Lots of broken glass repeatedly on the pavement recently on corner of Townley Road and Lordship Lane, outside the dentists. I've swept it up once already and I'll do it again at the weekend. If possible, it would be great to get one of those machines with brushes that hoovers it up as it's quite hard to get all the bits out of the cracks.

Looks like there is already some sort of portacabin on the site Surely we can't all build another house on our back gardens?

From experience, I know motorbike locks can be broken as well, not sure how they did it. Also make sure your seat is locked to your frame - easily down with a piece of chain and small padlock. I hate to be pessimistic, but even with all these precautions, it's still quite possible that one day it won't be there. Which unfortunately means that you shouldn't get an expensive bike.