LadyDeliah

And here is something about the money made by private companies for the torture flights - paid for by the US tax payer of course.

I'm just putting up blatant cases of disgusting behaviour by our governments which they have lied about. I'm not really into the New World Order thing, because I don't think they are smart enough to control everything to that extent, but I would be surprised if they didn't have long term plans on how to best protect their interests to the detriment of all us little folk. If that involved killing a few thousand people to introduce draconian laws then I don't think they'd be too worried, after all the loss of life in Afghanistan and Iraq is not something they are overly concerned about. However, I am not sure the evidence that happened is clear. It's hard to make sense of what actually happened because there is a lot of contradictory 'evidence' about. So I'm staying neutral on that until something more substantial turns up.

The UK government lied about their involvement in Extraordinary Rendition too. And here .

bobbly Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Upstart hippy? I think ZebaN simply gave some > other examples to consider that are not generally > given merit in our capitalist society. He/she did > say that its what is personal to you, not > necessarily denying what you believe in. I do I > don't think it warrants such abuse. A little more > respect would be appreciated, everyone is entitled > to their opinion surely. Do I need to post an irony alert?

Lol, I'm kind of distracted right now, but I'll get something more meaty up when I get time. Just thought I'd share those two grim examples of inhumanity for now.

Ok, Hugo, I said that I'd get some links that show past, known disgusting behaviour by the US government to show why it is reasonable not to trust them. Here are two to be getting on with: US deliberately giving syphilis to asylum patients in the name of science. And on their own citizens this also.

Good morning campers. Hugo you are still not using specifics to argue against what has been said so how can anyone respond in any meaningful way? When dismissing the Russia Today report you concede the facts but then make a general dismissal about hysteria. What hysteria? What particular parts of the report are you referring to? Where is your analytical breakdown and rebuttal? In response to your remarks about the insanity of believing conspiracy theories or that the people running things are just like you and I, I will post some examples of known cover-ups and hideous things tge governments have done later as I'm on my phone now and can't get links to them all. I don't think everyone would necessarily have to be in on a conspiracy for it to work. Disinformation and people's general unwillingness to rock the boat Coukd be relied on. And fear of arrest for disclosing secrets etc if someone didn't comply. The political philosophy thing was a bit of a joke by the way. It's on a site written by a load of artists and has some interesting ideas, but is a bit too ethereal for my tastes.

What Silverfox means is that he played by the rules and succeeded within those rules so he'll be damned if he's going to let sone upstart hippy say that there is another measure of success he could have used and saved himself from having to deny himself pleasure all these years :)

I have a bit of light reading here for you Hugo. I'm sure you must be a fan of Political Philosophy, seeing as you are so knowledgeable and well informed :)-D

I posted a specific report on the economic problems facing the US. You dismissed this out of hand without any comment on the content, by stating that the editor of Russia Today doesn't believe what they put out. Your source for this is a free rival news paper with a distribution of about 35,000, the Moscow Times who reported that the editor has increased the appeal of Russia Today by publishing controversial stories. So who is believing what they want to here then?

Well read something else then.

The guy who had a hissy fit about the Russia Today 9/11 questions is a Torygraph journalist whose blog has a distinct anti-islamic feel to it. Hugo you are quoting opinion. Just because this guy didn't like the questions, does not mean that they should not have been asked, or that facts that don't appear to correlate with the official version shouldn't be examined. I have no idea whether 9/11 was as a result of Islamic extremists or the US government, but I don't trust the government because they have lied so much to their own people to do things that they would not get popular support for. So it wouldn't shock me if they did either allow it to happen or facilitate it in some way. I don't think the evidence is clear either way, so my mind is still open on that issue. Screaming that people are loonies and trying to shut down debate on an issue by calling it a conspiracy theory is not helpful and adds nothing to the debate. If someone is making false claims, you have the intelligence to look at the alleged facts and disprove those facts, so why don't you do that instead of making sweeping dismissals based on some kind of superiority complex.

And how many mainstream media outlets believe all the stuff they print or broadcast?

The BBC, with pressure from the Murdochs, have been under sustained attack since the 80's and rarely go against the party line for fear of slashed funding and other reprisals from the government. The majority of newspapers in the UK are owned by corporations and have also been undermined by the actions of the Murdochs and various Acts of Parliament preventing anything that might be construed as secret from being published. The only major daily which is not owned by corporations, The Guardian, is hardly radical and has been shown to push lies when it benefits the paper. WikiStory and Guardian version. So I like to get my news from a variety of sources. I don't just rely on Radio 4, Newsnight etc for my news, I also use Russia Today, Al Jazeera, New Scientist, Telesur English, Wikileaks and activists directly involved in campaigns around the world for my news. Maybe that's why I see the world slightly differently to you Hugo. I don't swallow the mainstream (corporate interest) crap we are all served up as being gospel. I question everything and I like to be as informed as I can be. So come on, tell us all where you get all your amazing insight into what is happening in the world then Hugo.

So where do you get your 'news' from Hugo?

I follow Russia Today on Twitter, so get some interesting bits of news which doesn't make it to the mainstream UK media.

Does anyone like the from Russia Today?

New Nexus Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > mockney piers Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > no YOU'RE a smelly poo. Touched you last. > > > I?m glad my pot and kettle comment found resonance > with you, > Might be time for you to adopt the fetal position, > and have a little nap. Just had to say that this was particularly amusing!

The working class were created when they were kicked off common land that was enclosed and stolen by the elite. The elite still own land that was stolen in this way. I want it to be redistributed into common ownership again to be utilised by anyone who wishes to live off the land in a sustainable way. Ditto the spoils of empire and the slave trade. Historic acts of theft should not continue to offer societal advantage to the present day elite.

The portion of council rents kept by central government is the subsidy MM.

Can you do a karaoke night? Just now and then, purleeez?

Rental income from council houses goes straight to central government and a proportion is given back to councils, so in actual fact council tenants are subsidising the population at large, not the other way around. Also if something is not taxed when it should be, then that is a subsidy. Just as the zero tax status of private schools is a subsidy.

I call you Hugo and I'm definitely not Undisputed Truth! We've played football at the same time and were 2 different people, So I know he's not me, plus he's a dude and I'm not!

You may be right Mockers. I am a bit of a pessimist, but it may not be a rapid change. I hope the change will be more gradual and peaceful, but there will have to be change, especially if we add in the ecological crises facing us too.

Sorry, should have clarified, may survive as any kind of economic power. I doubt it though.