LadyDeliah

Huguenot Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Lady D, you miss the point - I was responding to > NN's claim that the pound could devalue, and that > we'd end up like Belarus if it did. > > His quote: "Did anyone see the picture and news > from Belarus, when it had to devalue? If so, take > that and the UK riots, times that by about a > 1000." > > I was pointing out that it has devalued, and we're > not like Belarus. > > If you reckon it's down by 2/3 then you make my > point even more strongly right? You're rubbishing > NN's point all on your own. > > Geddit? You have made many comments without referencing any of them, but that's ok, because your views are mainstream so you obviously don't feel the need to back up your opinion with evidence. I don't think that I have disproved anything with my post, other than anyone who has said it's all going to be ok. It's not. Devaluing the pound by 2/3 means all of our imports are going to rise in price significantly. Manufacturing and food production in the UK have been decimated over the past 30 years, so we are going to have to pay massively higher prices for all the things we need to survive. People on the breadline already, will be very hungry. Life will get very difficult and this may happen quickly. On the other hand, it could all just go away like a bad dream.

StraferJack Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Cuban missile crisis > London pea soupers > Advance of hi...I mean germany in WWII > > And many others > > You could either believe the "chicken licken sky > is falling down" merchants > > Or trust in humanities ability to find a way > > > We aren't at a pretty pass. Things could well go > tits up. I'm not pretending otherwise. But I do > wish some people would show some backbone and roll > their sleeves up instead of just saying "here are > some worst possible scenarios and i think they are > certain to happen" > > Because that way lies madness. Or at least > depression http://media.bigoo.ws/content/gif/birds/birds_201.gif Go on, take a peek SJ!

ibilly, thanks for the link. I have read some of his stuff, but I think Stiglitz, formally of the World Bank is pretty amazing. I read one of his early books and was very impressed. Stiglitz is less sensationalist and just gets on with explaining how the global financial institutions affect the lives of small people and who is pulling their strings. I would definitely recommend reading some of his stuff.

For example, the pound has not been devalued by a third, it appears to have been devalued by 2/3 and should be ringing alarm bells all over the UK as we import way more than we export, especially food and fuel. http://www.economist.com/blogs/buttonwood/2011/06/pound-and-gold

Hugo, they, especially Nexus, have put lots of links to articles, news programmes etc as sources for their comments. If a couple of their quotes are incorrectly referenced that doesn't negate the things that have been correctly referenced. You have made many comments that are full of opinion with no referencing to anything authoritative, and then proceed to infer that someone is a nutter if they hold a viewpoint that differs from yours. I think that is not fair and if you expect other people to correctly reference their opinions, I think you should apply the same standard to your own opinion pieces.

Ok, Hugo, where are the authoritative sources for your 'facts'?

In your opinion.

No, it's different points of view my dear!

Hugo, it's not very constructive to just attack people by inferring they are mental. You should make a counter argument if you disagree.

I agree with everything you say except nuclear and QE, but I think we also need to look at decision making structures and decentralisation of power. I think the Land Tax would go some way, but I'd actually go as far as advocating land reform and relaxing the planning laws in relation to eco-housing on green belts and in the countryside. I'd also encourage facilitation of workers co-operatives if businesses go to the wall, instead of administration and laying everyone off. ibilly, I used to be in the Green Party but am fairly disillusioned with party politics. Whoever you vote for, the same people are in power. I think the alternative is grass roots movements who work on doing things differently, such as all the church groups and other community leaders who met after the riots and are meeting again tomorrow. I don't think we should look to government for solutions, they have none that will benefit ordinary people as they are all in hock to the corporations, so we need to get active and shape our own communities and help to empower the communities less able to organise themselves.

So let's hear your solutions then Hugo. And who mentioned communist societies? I specifically stated that I think decision making/power should be local. Communist societies all had centralised power structures, where they replaced one elite for another.

My life would actually be better if there was no economic collapse and ecological crises, because I'm not doing too badly, thank you! But if I am able to reach my goals whilst more and more people are unable to reach theirs, I would not feel happy in my privileged position. I think the situation will actually be far worse than many people realise, just from the austerity measures that are being introduced. So even if I was happy living a life of privilege while others are suffering, I don't think I'd be immune from the backlash of their feelings of injustice. So it's in my own interests and those of my family, that I fight to try to change things. I do however think that we are seeing the death throws of a bloated capitalist system which has come to the end of the road in it's exploitation of the people and planet to feed it's greedy elite, but that's another story and that part may be the wishful thinking you accuse me of. I do not wish for chaos, however, I hope that there will be an orderly transition from our current system to one that is more sharing of assets on a commons basis and power/decision making is localised. I think the private property model cannot be sustained with rising population growth and diminishing natural resources, so in the future, in order to continue to survive as a species, humans will have to learn to co-operate and share in a more ethical and egalitarian way. So, no it's not about me getting a leg up. I could have done that easily in the current system, but was never interested in material gain. The only reason I studied law, is because it is holds the key to a system I wish to understand and help to change. I want to defend the voiceless and learn how to fight the big guys from within the system. Whether I'll ever manage to effect change or not, doesn't stop me wanting to try, because things need to change. The system as it is cannot be sustained. We live comfortably in the UK because other people live in abject poverty. The Western Capitalist system is propped up by exploitation of people and the planet on a massive scale, but something has to give. Many governments around the world who allow Western corporations to exploit their natural resources and labour are very unpopular with their people, but are kept in power through US financial and military intervention. The US imperial machine is over-expanded and creaking at the seams. When the US economy goes tits up, which I expect it will do in the very near future, the support they give to tinpot dictators all over the world will dissolve and so will a lot of our cheap goods, not to mention our pensions, investments etc. It's a house of cards and the UK economy is so tied into the US economy, that it is bound to affect our economy. We do not produce anything in this country, the majority of our food is imported. We are dependent on other countries for the majority of our energy supplies. I am worried that we will see food riots and people starving on the streets of Britain, if we do not get our shit together and begin to work on sustainable ways of running our country. Not a top down, elite deciding what's good for us kind of way of running things, but a way of running things that empowers people to organise and co-operate on a local level to make sure enough food is produced to prevent starvation and people who need somewhere to live are housed and energy can be produced by everyone having solar panels or wind turbines etc. These are a few solutions, but they are anti-corporation and can't produce any kind of sustained profit for anyone, so have not been allowed to be developed. The corporations and other elite who get the politicians to run the country to benefit them, will not give up power voluntarily and anyone who opts to live outside of their consumerist treadmill of a system is marginalised, but we have no choice. We cannot let them continue to exploit the people of this world or the planet. I don't have all the answers, no-one does, but it's obvious what the problems are and I think the more people who wake up to the enormity of the problems we face, the quicker something can be done about it.

Sorry to burst your bubble dear Hugo, there are plenty og things to panic about. I'd rather not know, to tell you the truth, as ignorance is bliss, but I do know and I can't now unknow, so I have to try to a)prepare myself and my family as best as possible to survive the massive changes coming and b)do my bit to try to fight for an ethical, non-violent transition, which includes raising awareness.

Just reminding everyone that this meeting is on tomorrow.

It takes a lot SJ to get me to that state!

Loz Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > LadyD, > > It was because of your post a few pages ago that I > gave NN a chance. I tried, I really did. But > when you a faced with a random garbage generator > with which any sort of intelligent debate is > impossible, then I'm sorry, there is only so much > I can take. When someone just churns out > cut-n-paste information they don't really > understand together with undergraduate level, > mindless political sloganeering, there is just no > conversation to be had. > > Now I suspect that you are only defending him/her > as their politics are - as far as can be > established - reasonably aligned with your own. > If a similarly reality-challenged poster came on > and started hopping into immigration by cutting > and pasting Daily Mail and BNP propaganda, I > somehow doubt you would be so charitable. In fact > I dare say the dread word 'nutter' just might > emanate from your keyboard. I don't think I would have said nutter, but I may not have been very nice. Actually I don't get upset by offensive people as much as other people do, so I would have probably tried to explain why I thought they were wrong. But I think Nexus has had a few drinks and was pretty unpleasant in his/her post above, which diminishes his/her argument too. So. I'm off for a pint! :)-D

Monsanto are bastards of the highest order, but that wasn't the point I was attempting to make really, Nexus. Just saying that on top of the collapse of the financial systems and possibly capitalism as a whole, there are the compounding features of the ecological crises.

richardbach Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > nutter You forgot the spelling scrambler Richard.

We are likely to be as poor as I was when I was 14in the near future. Why do you think all the big corporations are buying up all the farmland all over the globe? I think it's because they want to go into bio fuels as the oil gets more and more expensive making the cost of food massive. Sod gold and diamonds, farmland is where it's at! We should stop going on about the bankers, the collapse of the financial system is inevitable anyway, we need land reform before we all end up having to eat our neighbours!

The bottom line is that there is a massive imbalance between the US economy and the Chinese economy. And in a capitalist society whether you sort the banking shit out or not, the fundamental problem is that to make a profit, the elite have to exploit the workers. They drive done wages to increase their profits and in turn this affects the amount of crap the workers can buy. Therefore, even without the massive thefts by the banks, the whole system is bolluxed in anycase!

I think Nexus has done a pretty good job of defending himself against some pretty personal and abusive attacks. I don't understand why you feel that it is ok to call someone a nutter, just because their view of what is happening in the world does not accord with your own. I'm feeling quite sick to be honest. If you don't agree with Nexus, make an alternative argument, don't call him/her a nutter and throw personal insults.

Well it looks to me that the US is about to go tits up, and if we have been doing the same thing here, we will be too.

Just started the first clip, it is really informative. It's a mainstream news programme Frankito, not a rant. Explained a lot of stuff to me. I'm going to watch the others on my computer though instead of my phone. I now understand what the Glass-Stagall Act was now though, unlike Katie numbers methinks!

Anyone watching Newsnight?

Nexus Said: "You have the banks ? it?s not over, people think the banks have open their books and all the bad debt has been revealed. Sorry, one thing banks are good at is hiding numbers. Let me give you an example 1980?s saving and loans crisis. William K Black successfully got over a 1000 jailed for their part in the fraud committed at savings and loans. 2008 clear evidence of wide spread fraud, clear evidence of failure by financial regulating bodies. No special prosecutor assigned. No real action taken. Why was no special prosecutor assigned, because he/she would have had power of subpoena." I don't know anything about this so it would be nice if you expanded a bit. It's hard to really understand some of your points without a bit of background. I could google it, but I doubt I'd automatically know what sources are authoritative or not. If you put links to good sources that would help too. Thanks for bringing the debate though.