StraferJack

that said, I can agree with you about the cynicism of property as investment but it seems as if you'd be surprised by how many do on this thread alone in recent weeks: "Loz on Monday said: "But that's just an ideological problem you have at not wanting to see renting houses as a business. Every other business is entitled to deduct costs (such as interest on borrowing) from incoming revenue." Cyclemonket earlier that day spoke about the half million garage in Camberwell which is "advertised as "ideal buy to let investment" BTL Investment isn't aimed at just this garage - it has infected wider thinking earlier again LondonMix (a consistently thoughtful poster who is no bleeding heart" spoke about: "the concentration of a scarce resource in the hands of the most wealthy will always happen without regulation. Regarding housing we as a society have to decide how we want to address this: either reduce the attractiveness of owning homes as investments in London or increase the attractiveness of renting so that its not an issue. " and then you have quids saying: "Also, BTL has become a reasonable choice for pensions since the late 1990s,"

I don't think I did mean it as you read it at all - my lack of clarity, sorry What I meant was, given that several people on the tread have been exlicit about property as investment, I found it odd that you didn't reference any of those posts when you posted ""Who's treating their house as an investment, mike? Most people just want a place to live.." Nothing personal about your situation was meant or even occured to me

So 3 premiership teams pay more than Arsenal in wages, and we tend to finish about 4th (hopefully this year) sounds about right?

"Who's treating their house as an investment, mike? Most people just want a place to live.." But that's patently untrue these days - even people who aren't speculating with BTLs are viewing their property as their pension And if it isn't true of everyone, it's true of enough people to be distorting the market Several people on this thread alone are explicit in their view of property as investment - I'm surprised you haven't said as much

If they held deposit themselves, my suspicion is they have spent it and looking for ways to not find it to return it Naughty

Yeah the Lewes forum is populated by a small number of people with multiple multiple names and are clearly bonkers Much more so than this place Thankfully living there is nothing like that

So if house prices decreased you would be able to buy cheaper no?

Penguin Have I misunderstood or are you basically saying "same as it ever was" ?

I think we would all rally around your facebook page to make it clear how momentous the next few weeks are Otta - if you can't by some time for this.....

why would you be in trouble if it did Otta - you planning to move?

does LL want for custom? you could fit MORE people along the lane at the weekend? It would start to get unpleasant

Mick - I'm on nowhere near that but I plucked a figure out of the air with extreme savings to show how silly the situation is Jeremy - I think we are on the same side of the argument but they way you present it, it's as if it comes down to mere choice. My point is if you choose a certain higher paying career you are unlikely to linger in a small 2 bed in unglamorous locations I'm still not 100% with you on the priced out of area comparison - if you are priced out of an area you were born in, then obviously the price has changed dramatically. The question is why? That why question underpins this whole thread tho - people can't agree on why. Some say supply and demand but I disagree the demand (in my view) should be, by an large, people who live here wanting to buy somewhere to live. The supply should be people moving out, people trading up, some building etc But to me the demand is completely corrupted by two things a) people in a herd mentality doing ANYTHING because they think they need to get a foot on the ladder. We have seen this before and it always ends badly b) the multiples of salary are now so ludicrous compared to historical standards that those who already have property can speculate on additional properties with a view to (ugh) yields. I can't comprehend loz' viewpoint who views speculation on people's homes as a business but hey Anyway - multiple home owners and investors (be they domestic or foreign - matters little) Strip them out of the equation and you have a healthier view - except all of the people who paid top dollar wll fight tooth and nail to keep their investment at a higher price. Lower house prices are supposedly a good thing (we want lower prices for everything as consumers right?) but too many vested interests have no wish to see prices come down

"- we've not yet reached a point where highly paid professionals cannot buy property " are we waiting for that to happen before we come to an agreement that the situation isn't just f**ked up but needs addressing? "- again, buying "where you grew up" is not a useful indicator of anything" I would argue it's a useful metric Ireland was ALWAYS a place you could afford to buy if you grew up there. Until the celtic tiger and property boom put paid to all that. But when people couldn't afford to buy when they grew up, it told them something edited because - my typing is atrocious!

You are correct Jeremy ? I didn?t specify However, if (theoretical!!) I?m earning 80k a year, with the pressure and time commitments that go with that? And I?m saving 40k a year only to see prices outsrip my savings Am I really thinking a small leasehold flat in SE22 is the height of my aspiration? Am I really the only one who can afford to buy a small flat in SE22 ? I have to jump through ALL those hoops and that?s my reward? And if I was on 80k a year I?m a lucky one compared to most of the people around me ? what are THEY doing? Sounds like something wrong to me

if you were on 80k and saving half of that a year for a deposit, prices are still outstripping your savings

well depends on where on teh ladder in the orgs they are A regular doctor on NHS wards or someone not senior or in trading in the city isn't going to be on too much more than the 40k ish mark are they?

"but I pray we beat them, just to wipe the smug look off of Jose's face." ah I remember last time I feltthat way 1000 games in charge for Wenger - surely THIS was the moment to ... awwww bugger but I am so hoping Liverpool do it - and am booking time in the pub for that game. Everywhere will be heaving I expect

Average and median mean just that - both will be skewed by some of the really big earners in London How many of the whatever million people in London are on that 40k ish figure?

hmmm - I'd be suspicious of that

phew - was just asking out of genuine concern!

That isn't a middle-earner Jeremy, surely? That would be a high-earner in a good job for most people

so I think we are making same point Otta? Jeremy - you work those hours regularly?

I agree with your general point CM, but thought the line " given that annual season tickets from the home counties run into several thousands a year " was misleading given the same happens within London your point about services outside core hours remains totally valid of course regarding an earlier point about not having a right to buy where one grows up - I sort of agree. However: If one is brought up in a relatively (nb) ramshackle and unglamorous part of SE London - and even with years and years of influx, Lordship Lane isn't glamorous - and one is raised to get an education, degree and a good job in (say) medicine or the city and even THEN can't afford to buy where one grows up... well, again, alarm bells should be ringing Saying "there is no right to".... is basically saying "it's always been thus so no need to worry" i wonder what it would take to make some people wory before calamity strikes

cyclemonkey - remind me how much pa a zone 1-6 pass is for public transport in London Lot's of minimum wage workers will be living out there and bussing/tubeing it in to central London. That is a huge chunk of change as well

Huh ? interesting I always understood the ?vinyl feels better? argument from a subjective point, but for most of the time I always felt like I was being told, objectively, that vinyl was the best and that digital was bobbins As I?ve recently moved (for the 12th time?) my crates of vinyl to a new address, I have come to accept I will never ever ever play any of them again ? time to ditch them I think