edhistory

I can't help with the genealogy - I'm after a local genealogist too. But here's a picture for your project that you may not have seen before. John K

TillyTrotter: You raise an important point. Received history often has one generation fighting World War One and a different generation fighting World War Two. It will be great if the oral history project captures any stories of East Dulwich men and women who served in both wars. katie1997: Despite the poor quality I decided to use the enlistment form because I'd never seen one before and 1t related to 23 May 1916. John K

Rifleman Baker would have had a terrifying time leading up to his death. I hope he died instantaneouly. It is unlikely that a 16 year-old would have been ordered to go over the top in the counter-attack. More likely he would have been deployed as a trench runner. John K

I have been asked to credit the writers and editors of the First Surrey Rifles War Record. They were: Capt. H.R.S.Coldicott Lieut-Col. G.Dawes Major C.W.B.Heslop Capt. W.G.Pidsley The War Diary entry was signed off by Brigadier-General H.B.Kennedy. John K

smb12's post is accurate. It also deals in passing with the three known grounds for challenging a Southwark Council GIS generated catchment area decision. One additional point: It is not only Southwark Council that has access to commercial GIS. I have used ArcGIS to generate maps. In 2011 there are probably surveyors and civil engineers living in East Dulwich who have access to commercial GIS packages. Southwark Council determinations are now subject to citizen validation. John K

Our local Battalion's day of action on the Western Front on 23 May 1916 has been overshadowed by 15 September 1916 - the day that has gone down in history as "The Hell That Was High Wood". I have placed brief details of 23 May 1916 here. John K

Jeff James wrote an excellent article. I hope many people read it. I support his appeal for the First Surreys' archive to be properly catalogued, presevered, and perhaps digitised. I chose this thread because our local Cadet Force has the East Dulwich War Memorial as the focus of remembrance for our local Battalion. I am sorry if I have offended anyone. John K

samstoppit, Rye Oak appears on the map under its official name "Peckham Rye Primary School". ed_pete, My GIS tutor gave me a rough and ready demonstration of how network analysis software can be applied to a GIS data set to calculate a "safe route" catchment area. Here is the Bessemer Grange one. I've chosen this because because it displays the "Green Dale" problem. John K

The Roll of Honour of the First Surrey Rifles Non-Commissioned Officers and Riflemen Killed in action 23 May 1916 Alleyne, George Albert, rfn, 3067 Baker, Frederick Albert, rfn, 3755 Ball, Horace William, rfn, 650102 Beaton, Stanley, rfn, 1556 Beaty, Walter, rfn, 3842 Bird, Frederick Joseph, rfn, 650581 Blackman, George Dullam, sgt, 1656 Bostwick, Ernest, rfn, 3386 Boulter, William John, rfn, 4403 Breakspear, Vincent, rfn, 651106 Burgess, Albert, lcpl, 1577 Bush, Sidney Charles, rfn, 3999 Clark, Lewis, lcpl, 2063 Clee, Frederick James, lcpl, 2561 Cooper, Lewis, rfn, 651033 Davis, William, rfn, 651257 Davis, John Percy, rfn, 3501 Dobson, William John, rfn, 651281 Drake, Henry, rfn, 3537 Duck, Leslie Sidney, sgt, 650022 Eastlake, Frank Wooton, lsgt, 2121 Elger, Marshall, rfn, 651462 Ellwood, Edward Albert, rfn, 650170 Fitch, Frederick Arthur, rfn, 651277 George, Stephen Penry, lcpl, 2426 Hanrahan, Richard, rfn, 650358 Harlock, Edward Arthur William, cpl, 2951 Harman, Jack Pennington, rfn, 651358 Hart, Stewart William, lsgt, 651005 Hobbs, Sidney, rfn, 3436 Howell, George Albert, rfn, 651336 Jackson, Thomas Henry, lcpl, 2769 Jesset, Joseph Richard, sgt, 1708 Jury, Fredrick Ernest, rfn, 651100 Knight, Morlington Nicholls, rfn, 3569 Lambe, Thomas Herbert, rfn, 2818 Lee, Walter George, lcpl, 2132 Merryweather, Charles Samuel, rfn, 650131 Nelson, Leonard, rfn, 650235 Oxlade, Frank, rfn, 650606 Partridge, William, rfn, 651330 Passey, George Leonard, lcpl, 650404 Pile, Ivor, rfn, 651301 Rundle, Albert Thomas, rfn, 1330 Scholfield, Herbert, rfn, 651437 Silvester, Frederick John, lcpl, 2834 Simpson, Charles Edward, rfn, 3866 Smith, Edward, rfn, 651235 Soper, Stanley, rfn, 651219 Spalding, Edwin Samuel, rfn, 650441 Style, William John, rfn, 651186 Suter, George Frederick, sgt, 650014 Telling, William James, rfn, 1629 Thomas, Victor George, rfn, 651332 Throsby, Alfred, rfn, 1173 Vint, Gerald, rfn, 651355 Walsh, Thomas, rfn, 651565 Ward, Henry Sidney, rfn, 651176 Watson, Archibald William, rfn, 651328 White, Edgar, rfn, 651693 White, Frederick, rfn, 3461 Wilson, Ernest Sidney Leonard, rfn, 1321 Wrigley, William, rfn, 3771 Wyllie, John Malcolm, rfn, 650447 Officers (Where the Commonwealth War Graves Commission has 23 May 1916 as the date of death) Edmunds. G., 2nd Lieut Hunte, A.F., 2nd Lieut

Fuschia, I believe that all the faith schools have a final distance from school admission criterion. If no child gains admission on ground of closeness to the school the catchment area will have zero radius, the blue circle will disappear from the map and only the red location spot will remain. Susan, No. The current version of the map has notional 400 metre catchment areas. When Southwark releases the 2011 admissions infomation some of the blue circles will grow and some will shrink. Then we will have an evidence base for 2011 "black holes" (or none). The map cannot be used as an accurate guide to 2012 admissions catchment areas. John K

This is a heavily compressed GIS generated map. If there is interest I can upload the full 15mb version to a web-site. The red spots are the official Ordnance Survey National Grid reference locations of the schools. The map can be easily modified if Southwark Council release the grid references it uses for the "main entrances". The blue circles are 400 metres radius from the official location. The circles can be easily changed when Southwark releases the information on 2011 admissions catchment areas. We will then be able to see whether there are any East Dulwich "black holes". John K

I was too technical. Just two points: [1] Southwark Council's assertion that its GIS calculation trumps anything done by a citizen is false. [2] There are at least three potential legal grounds to challenge a catchment area determination. I'll leave this for the EDF lawyers to explain. John K

Don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia or in a Postal Museum "Archive Information Sheet". Here is a poor quality photograph of the Official 1870 map. It is thought that only a couple of examples survive. East Dulwich Postal District was created c1895. SE22 is not the same as East Dulwich. The SE22 sorting office processes mail for some parts of East Dulwich. John K

Thanks, mikeb, you've nailed it. John K

Barton Page 54 "The stream [The Earls's Sluice] received a tributary from Peckham Rye which was known locally the Peck, whose bed is still visible in Peckham Park." That's it. John K Who can't spell

I'm sorry, Paul, but your statements in your book about the River Peck and East Dulwich do not appear to be accurate. Perhaps you could share your documentary sources. John K ============================================ Talling, Paul London?s Lost Rivers Random House Books 2011 978-1-84794-597-8 Page 112 deals with the River Peck running through East Dulwich. ?[?] the only remaining above-ground section of the river is in Peckham Rye Park.? ?A tree that was christened the Angel Tree in his [William Blake?s] honour has long since died.? ?Further upstream, the source of the Peck is at the summit of Honor Oak Hill, which is named after an oak tree beside which Elizabeth I shared a picnic with a courtier in May 1602.? ?The summit of Honor Oak Hill was also used as part of a system of early-warning beacons during the reign of Elizabeth I, notably upon the arrival of the Spanish Armada in 1588.?

Can someone help me identify this map? Thanks, John K

This topic came up in dicussion with my GIS tutor in the context of preparing historical maps of East Dulwich schools. I have tried to make this short and not too technical. John K [1] The Office of National Statistics maintains a data set of the "official" positions of all schools in England. [2] The official position is called a "centroid". [3] The centroid is defined by a National Grid Reference to many decimal points, sufficient to maintain the Ordnance Survey's nominal 2cm [sic] positional accuracy. [4] Southwark schools now use "as the crow flies" calculations to determine catchment areas. [5] It is a simple matter to have GIS software draw a "buffer" [circle] of a specific radius from the centroid. [6] The buffer would be the same as the Southwark declared catchment area. [7] Southwark schools deviate from the official centroid when calculating catchment areas. [8] No opinion is expressed on the legality of this deviation. [9] Where there is more than one school entrance Southwark schools choose a school entrance in place of the official centroid. [10] No opinion is expressed on the legality of choosing a school entrance as a different centroid to modify a catchment area. [11] It is a simple matter to create a new centroid data set and draw a new buffer based on the chosen school entrance. [12] When a child can be outside a catchment area by as little as one metre where the centroid is based in regard to the school entrance can be important. It can be the difference between the left-hand and right-hand gate post. [13] Southwark Council [Planning Department] should have access to basic GIS software than can calculate the buffers. [14] Mapping buffers would provide objective evidence as to the alleged East Dulwich "black holes". [15] Mapping buffers would help parents in assessing the accuracy of a failed school application on the grounds of being outside the catchment area. [16] In 2011 there is no reason why Southwark Council should not be using GIS for these important calculations.

I can't see a photo of the fountain mentioned on the FORPR web-site on the site so I've attached a copy here. It's taken from Sexby's "Municiplal Parks [...]" 1905 edition. The same photo appears in the 1898 edition but not so well reproduced. This gives a terminus ante quem. English Heritage have recently released two high resolution photos of the farm house and the interior of the barn taken on 11 July 1908. EH state the buildings were demolished in August 1908. John K

The Early History page on the Friends of Peckham Rye Park web-site is "interesting". For the rest, remember the topography of the park as you read. www.archive.org has scans of a large number of useful books for East Dulwich History. However, all pre-1914 books with material about East Dulwich need to be treated with caution. This includes the 1912 VCH which some people treat as authoritative. The Besant is an elegant and attractive book, but the information provided needs examination. Before 1905 the London County Council Parks Department (probaby directed by Sexby himself) had developed a "rural walk" between the Homestall Farm buildings. This is said to have been popular. In 1908 the Parks Department invited tenders to tarmac the site of the former Homestall Farm buildings. And the legal disputes continued... The park opened in 1894. By 1895 Camberwell Council had launched legal action against the LCC alleging that the park had encroached upon Camberwell property. John K bthrough thehTh

Well, here's a surprise. This is what happens when GIS software projects the 1733/99 Friern Manor boundary on to a 2011 street map. This needs more investigation in respect of the deviation from the 1831 county boundary. What it does show, beyond reasonable doubt, is that the witness evidence given by the Lord of the Manor's agent to the parliamentary enquiry into the alleged illegal enclosure of parts of Peckham Rye Common was, at best, "suspect". It is clear that more than half of Peckham Rye Common was within Friern Manor. John K

Not the Ann Cooper Bequest. That was land outside modern London. The sale of that one small field in East Dulwich was adjudicated on by the Charity Commissioners and reported to the House of Commons. I've attached just the first page of the correspondence. There is a lot of it. If you would like a full copy send me an email to [email protected] John K

Mikeb, Here are two more maps. The problem with all these maps is they are not normally a snapshot in time but span a period in time. Also the only (small and fuzzy) image I've seen of Charlton House. John K

The LCC "Parks" handbook of 1902 has this entry for Peckham Rye Park. I understood that the Homestall Farm buildings had already been incorporated into the park before 1902. What are the properties referred to? What happened next? John K

Sue, The St John family was a major landowner and benefactor of Battersea Parish. Hollis St John died in 1738 without issue. This causes a puzzle about why he is named on the Friern Manor map. In c1700 Walter St John bought 30 acres in Camberwell (parish) to provide an income for Battersea Grammar School. The area on the map for the poor of Battersea is too small to be this. It is possibly the Ann Cooper Bequest. In her will 22 June 1720 she left ?300 to purchase land and the rental to be used for the poor of Battersea. More research is needed. The EDF has several genealogists who can elucidate the Friern/Battersea connection. John K