SeanMacGabhann

I don't think Ken ever got the credit for opposing the tube PFI job either - the whole thing unfolded just as he and others said it would but all that happened at the time was HE was accused of wasting taxpayers money. Him. Not Brown... heaven forfend He has a history of saying what he means and following it through - for the most part. He's human so is bound to have flaws and a few skeletons but on the whole... Plus, he used to live a few doors away on the same street as me in Cricklewood

err... (see what I did there) - do you find the iTunes interface that bad? I've been using different software for years and years and had all of the old Winamps but I find iTunes a breeze to do everything in - and it works so seemlessly with the iPod compared to Sony's software for example (not tried Creative - what did that use?) You'll be asking me to buy a phone other than a Nokia next *shudders at memory*

Loz You talk plenty sense and I'm not disagreeing with you but your line tells it's own story doesn't it? Where I work at the moment (Fleet St and/or Canon St) had tons of indie coffee shops, aways packed - this was what - about 5-6 years ago. All gone, all starbies et al so it's no wonder you can't find them easily They didn't go out of business because of product or service or lack of customers Oh look I know I'm banging on about it but the sheer voracity and power of these places scares the shite out of me

I know, I know - I did stretch things a little but are people really arguing for a "survival of the fittest" or "the strong survive" I thought the whole point about us evolving was to get away from that - aren't several forumites in the caring professions? Are they wasting their time? If you mean in a business sense then you have to aske what makes one business strong and one weak - it's isn't just down to the size of the business or the quality of the product. Strong communities tend to have roots with local business making both stronger... Weak communities.. I listed some above and I've lived in most of them.. tend to favour malls and chains. Is there a connection? or am I making everything up?

lol - I turn my back for 2 seconds and MP turns it into one of his "rooms" - weeelll it is the lounge I guess But if we are going to discuss: Forget any of the moral/environmental/good/badguys arguments - bottom line is, if LL looks like Swindon/Bracknell/Ilford/Croydon in 5 years time will you mind? If you don't mind then all argument is redundant because you'll be a happy customer. But you must be able to see why some people wouldn't want that - again for reasons nothing to do with the above. and without judging them as "holier than thou" And whilst a mix is probably ideal you don't have to be a died-in-the-wool idealist to know that that isn't how corporations work - they expand aggresively and wipe out as much competition as they can/ They are legally obliged to - otherwise the shareholders can sue. So it's idealistic to say a mix can and will happen.. It might be happening now as the area transitions but it won't be for long So some people aren't bothered by that. But many people are. And supporting greenpeace has nothing to do with it. So they are a big organisation? Where are they in LL?? But the ability to know where your stuff comes from should be important - otherwise we could well be eating our Solyent Greens in the future. Ok ok - - I took a massive leap there. But the principle is the same - it's why the GM companies are so keen to get "in". Forget the health scares that make the papers.. it's about owning the food chain. it's about suing farmers in China for growing rice because now some company owns the patent. Loz is right when he says the big supermarkets have the power to be a force for good. And they have done plenty of good. But they balance of powere has swung too far in their favour IMO. Supermarkets will only do what's profitable. So if the consumers have the power they should exercise it. Then again if the consumers aren't that fussed.. If you wanted to control the food chain, what would be easier - to take on all the indie establishments one by one, with their multiple suppliers and local habits - or to hoover up one or two big companies?

Michael P - this one is as good as any of the others.... 'ave at ye!

And so my next question MP , is where were you when this argument was kicking off on another thread months ago! sheesh ;-) I think we should resurrect that thread and carry the debate on there as this one is about a specific issue. But I do like the "it depends which organisation you support" line. It just reminded me of the Stewart Lee routine and the values held by the Carphone Warehouse >:D< I'm still not sure why you brought Greenpeace, the environment and morality into any of this mind you... EDIT - just resurrected one of the chain threads in the Lounge if you still fancy the debate

(first up I'm not up for closing Nero's down. It's there now so let's move on and focus on what's next) Who is making it an environmental issue MP? There are stacks of differning reasons why one might discourage chains you say that like they are morally equivalent in some way you're an above intelligent bloke MP, you know that's not how it works at all. You know than landlords for example prefer branded clients because they can charge higher rates and the actively prevent indies. You are quite right to say that being and indie doesn't make you good but a healthy market for indies at least allows most of us to have a go if we want? A decision in Seattle (or somewhere) that read SE22 on a spreadsheet as a good target will do ANYTHING to close down the competition - and the small guy just doesn't have the resource to fight it. Only local people can decide the winner in that competition Again - I'm not going for a black and white on the chains v indie thing. I'm just countering some of the reasoning

Peckham Rose - shocked at the major intolerance. Do people really think parking doesn't need any regulation at all? Sympathies with Brendan's experience but faced with the general public's attitude to parking and their ability to lie about it then of course a zero-tolerance approach has been adopted. My sympathies are with them mostly - screwed by managers for targets and screwed by the public for doing what they shouldn't have So if it's not parking attendants, how DO people want to be able to park (and do bear in mind that without regulation that spot on the double yellow lines you stopped on for 10 minutes won't be there anymore, it'll be taken loooong before you get there)

* number of people who WERE thinking of going but have now decided not to = several * ;-)

whoah! I never said that....

Agreed on both counts Keef Only thing that mars Fergies argument is the way Man U behave - pulling out of the FA Cup? Or going to Saudi to effectively support state-sponsered apartheid (no women allowed watch the game a few days ago) You know... if he is going to talk about CLASS

???? - you give yourself too much of a hard time - you'd be surprised how people with opposite views get on at the drinks. Get on down there

everyone? or just me... ;-)

Truthfully I am making a general observation and backed up with zero evidence (just own observations from time abroad in cafes/restaurants and shops) so I'm happy to be persuaded

all true Asset but the general point remains: it is more common to see badly behaved children (lets say up until aged 10 for want of a better year) in the British Isles As it happens I've met some of the children of various forumites and found them all to be pretty splendidly behaved - and I'm being totally honest - then again I've not had the pleasure of meeting loz's second ;-). But I do have friends here and in Ireland with frankly appalling children. I'm not against fizzy drinks crisps myself but they seem to have their kids hooked up to a drip... It's not the only reason... any bad behaviour is indulged as "ah sure they're just kids"

I love Beth Gibbons - and that song took me back to Somerset House of a few summer ago - nice one Piers Let's stick with cool ladies: Shelby Lynne - Your Lies

It's this bit that sticks out for me. It's been my observation too.. but what do people put it down to? Are there reasons specific to this country (I'll also throw in, and in fact up the ante that kids in Ireland are even worse)

binary thinking in action

*wanders in to check something..*

really PeckhamRose? is that from a "never been so just curious" perspective or a "I liked it the old way" perspective? apart from the landlord getting fedup with the drugs and violence? Or reading the writing on the wall for alcohol only boozers and choosing to try stay in business?

you say "hectoring" like it's a bad thing MP? Are there not things that need opposition? This will get moved to the lounge if it goes down a chain good/bad route again so I'm not contributing either way as yet

C'mon kford - what's with the phrase "proletariat" - at least in the derogatory sense you used it? It gives the lie to the usual excuse "well, i WOULD use public transport if only they would improve it" a lot more people on trains and buses (and more of trains and buses) isn't just Ken's dream y'know...

usually those people who can't make it until the "second half" have an arrangement with their employer to drink at their desk/station from about 4pm - just out of fairness so everyone fits in One or two of us have made the mistake of turning up late and sober and we've never done either again

stop with the "may", you! What time you thinking of getting there - anytime before 9-9:30 and you probably won't notice too much on the intoxication front.. after that...weeeeellllll sky's the limit