Moos

Nice thread, SeanMac. Not that I disagree about Ted, but I'd like to nominate Giggirl. I'm always amazed by how she takes the time to share tips and news about gig tickets to everyone. Such a kind thing to do.

Yes, I thought so too! It was use of the word 'sensed' that made me think so. Could be a difficult road for our hero, but I feel he'll get there in the end.

Hooked, absolutely hooked. Bring it on TedMax. Will we hear more of the tattoo'd barber, I wonder?

Thanks Belle, was starting to feel rather lonely on this thread.

Brendan Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Being intentionally provocative! On this forum! > ::o > > Well I would certainly never participate in such > behaviour. Oh yes he would, wouldn't he boys and girls (en masse) OH YES HE WOULD!

I thought for a moment that the kids outside were his. But then I realised that wasn't possible. Looking forward to reading the next installments. Does he ever go home, and what's that like?

No, no Steve, have you learned nothing from the movies? You really think its avenging ghost won't be after us all, and our children's children, with its nasty pointy teeth?

I love the park, it's incredibly beautiful and peaceful. My favourite tree (the maple on the walk from the main entrance towards the stone bridge in the Japanese garden) is just reaching its annual height of gorgeous foliage. Don't know Dulwich Park so well, but from what I've seen it's nice too - and as Nero said, the lake is lovely, whereas PRP's is a bit soggy-looking. It would be nice if the children's playground could be revamped a bit. I always thought it and the Goose Green playground were OK if basic but having now seen the facilities available in places like Highbury - huge sandpits with lots of things to play with, sophisticated climbing frames for various ages, big slides, lots of swings - I've got playground envy.

Really? Cool! There's one in Camberwell too, in the pretty park/garden behind the St. Giles' on Camberwell Church Street.

Turning men into jewellery - is this some form of modern alchemy? Oh no, alchemy is when you turn worthless rubbish into gold. My mistake. (Keef! Joking! Don't be offended! Please!)

Yes, but having only 2 hands one needs but the 2 copies. Other than that, aye aye captain.

SeanMacGabhann Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Objections sustained - thread stays in Lounge Can you be both prosecution and bench at the same time?

.."a warm puppy". Or did I get that wrong?

I know it's shameful, but I'd honestly rather wash up.

I can't cook, but it's more a 'won't cook' attitude - I hate cooking and find it really stressful, and therefore do as little as I can get away with. If you could teach me to love cooking - now that would be wonderful: imagine the idea that one could actually find the half-hour of preparing dinner pleasant and relaxing! But I fear it is beyond the agency of mortal man.

OK, I have to stop all this long posting now. I hope I haven't ignited too many flames, but if I can't take much part today in ongoing discussion, it's not because I think I've said the last word..

Bellenden Belle Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- And personally under "why having kids is the best > thing ever" - I imagine being able to go out with > food spilt down your top and to wave any comment > away with a "ooooh, kids... what can you do?" > would suit me just fine. I could definitely > embrace being a slummy, rather than yummy, mummy! That really made me laugh. However, I am constantly finding myself blushing for the hideous state I find myself in. Just the other day I was dressed up in my smart raincoat thinking myself tr?s tr?s chic when I looked down to find a kneehigh smear of snot across the hem where the Moosling had got me on my way in the night before. I don't think that's what they mean by 'customising' ones clothes, is it? On a more serious note, TLS makes some really good points about the difficulties of single parenthood and the importance of fathers. I agree that it should be a very brave and well-resourced woman who actively decides to go it alone. I'll leave the rights and wrongs of that choice to another post. The fact remains that sometimes single parenthood is forced on a woman, or more rarely a man (let's say a widower with children). A woman finding herself accidentally pregnant is in a very, very difficult situation. I'd go to the stake for her right to choose, but speaking personally as an adult woman - even were I single - I'd find abortion an almost impossible choice to make. So when TLS says "I have no admiration whatsoever for someone who brings any child into this World with the clear disadvantage of Single Parenthood(which is NOT insurmountable)... " I can't agree. If a child comes into the world through you and you do your utmost without the 'normal', desirable assistance of a partner, well done you. Yes, there are disadvantages, and yes you'll have to work three times as hard. And that is why other people should go out of their way to support and help you, rather than condemn you. TLS also raises the male/female role model argument. Again I think it's an important point. But what about gay couples raising children? Obviously it's a question they have to bear in mind, but aren't there ways around it - grandparents, godparents, friends?

"I just don't appreciate when some people see me as somehow damaged or deluded for not being keen on the idea" I should bloody well think not, that's a barbaric and frighteningly self-centred opinion. You have to wonder whether its proponents are going through the bad phases of parenthood and hoping to reinforce their choices by putting yours down. Suggest you think of your lovely non-saggy bosom in order to maintain the smile on your face, and change the subject...

David!

Bellenden Belle Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Fundamental > ? adj. forming a necessary base or core; of > central importance: > > A discussion about what a great experience it is > to have children is absolutely fine - I don't > doubt it is. > To describe it as a "fundamental stage of life" is > something entirely different. BB, bugger, I did wonder whether I'd explained myself well. I think many parents would say that having children was of central importance to their lives. I certainly would. That is what I meant by individual experience - fundamental to my individual experience of life, and I think to many others. But I don't believe it is necessarily of central importance to life in general (what I previously and poorly defined as 'human'). As IP says, it's not necessary for everyone to 'breed'. I'm not sure it ever has been. IndieP, you say "I'm not sure I agree with the notional that having children is a fundamental part of life." I hope you mean what I have just redefined above. If, however, you mean that you believe it cannot be a fundamental part of a person's life I will say with respect that it is for the parent to make that definition for himself. You have argued with passion and eloquence that others should not define and judge your choices. It has to work both ways.

glau Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > My mother-in-law is an astrologer and she likened > my chakra, or was it my aura? to Al Kaida's in > general and Osama bin Laden's in particular. No. > Really. Glau, that would be hilarious if it weren't so sad. I can't imagine anyone less terrorist than you. I am envisaging her doing it in a wonderfully passive-aggressive way , with a sympathetic smile on her face. Mothers-in-law are a delight, aren't they - mine is the original aggressive-aggressive flavour. She once told me all English women look like horses.

BB and Indiepanda, do you think you might be over-interpreting EDCitizen's post? I didn't read it to mean that if you don't have children you should feel obliged to go off and cure cancer, or whatever. What he said was those who choose not to have children could be seen as noble - he didn't really say why, but perhaps because of the argument that having children is a selfish act - perpetuating ones own genes. However, I don't agree that refraining from having children is always 'a choice', and BB and Indiepanda have given lots of good reasons why that might be so already. For a man without a partner there's even less choice! A woman could make the decision to go it alone, and many have, but as BB said it's a hard road. But finally I come back to an uncomfortable feeling raised by the two previous posters. The sentences 'missing a fundamental stage in our lives' and 'it is so tiresome being single and having people rub salt in the wound by going on about missing out on one life's great experiences' seem to imply that this discussion is wrong to describe having children as a fundamental stage of life, or as a great experience, on the grounds that it is not a universal experience. Am I in turn over-interpreting what you have said? It's become clear from the contributions that perhaps we should all be more intelligent and sensitive in how we discuss one another's choices, and that many people who don't have kids have had to put up with some fairly dim-witted and frankly nasty comments from their friends. I hope some of them are reading this and blushing. But I also hope this doesn't mean that we can't celebrate parenthood or recognise that it is a fundamental and life-changing experience. Edited a while later because it occurs to me that the important distinction in the 'fundamental' argument is the difference between fundamental to human experience and fundamental to individual experience. Perhaps we shall turn out to be in agreement with one another after all?

I think Asset's idea about taking away the books you brought that no-one wants is good, but inevitably there will be people who leave early, and therefore some flotsam and jetsam to sweep up. Therefore if we keep a 5-book limit too, that would be reduced. Gowlett works for me but the Clockhouse might be good if we can book the little mezzanine, as we can spread the books out on the table for people to rummage through. Happy to book it if anyone agrees.

Non-believers will not give a fig

Now that I've read the books that I picked up at the last swap - and a great haul they were too - when's the next one?