Louisa

Speak for yourself. Louisa.

Here we go again. Pick on Louisa for having an opinion. I knew it wouldn't take long. Another poster raised a valid question regarding Rye Lane, I had an opinion on that, and I get branded all sorts of unsavoury things. Picked on for suggesting Rye Lane is a utopia? This is exactly how world wars start SJ, people not being allowed to have a voice. As I stated 'Louisaism' and an extreme form at that. I ignore positive posts because I do not wish to be seen as a martyr, but if I must ride to Coventry naked on horse back to ensure working class voices are not silenced then so be it. Louisa.

What about 'Louisaism' that appears alive and well on this forum. Louisa.

Oh KK behave yourself. I clearly stated the ratings system was probably a load of unsubstantiated clap-trap, and you were the one who got oh so excited about it when alice posted it up. Out of interest how do you know if people have become ill from eating from certain establishments down there or not? Where's the proof no one has been ill? I certainly wouldn't take my chances eating from some of those places based purely on sights and smells and nothing at all to do with any ratings systems. Louisa.

Just to clarify. Rye Lane brings up SIX pages. The firt TWO pages bring up either chains OR other businesses not specialising in fresh food. The final TWO pages bring up mostly independent butchers and fishmongers- all around 0-2 in terms of ratings. But unlike some of you, I won't read too much into these figures because there is no explanation where they came from or in what ways they were measured so I will give those poorly ranked businesses the benefit of the doubt. However, the fact chains filled up the first two pages and fresh food indies filled up the final two pages is striking to me. Louisa.

I have alice. All chains. ASDA, Morrisons, Tesco Express, Iceland scored 5/5. Send me a link to these independent businesses. Louisa.

Just done a quick search of a few of the businesses I use. F.C Soper ranked 4/5 which I am more than happy with. Equally, I typed in "meat, fish, Peckham" into the search box and a few Rye Lane businesses selling fresh food came up. TWO out of TEN ranked 3/5, the rest ranked 0 to 2. Incidentally, Moxons received 5/5. So alice and KK, you can read whatever you want to into selective figures presumably NOT taken at random. But, the fact remains, just a quick general search of Rye Lane did not return a single business ranking 4 or 5. Try it yourself. Says it all as far as I'm concerned. Louisa.

KK I want to be able to shop there, but currently I cannot because of the smells and the condition of the streets. I think much of it is a health hazard and needs to be upgraded. The shop fronts need putting back and the lazy open shutter nature of the place has to change. Not just for me and my tastes, but for the benefit of the whole community. It isn't just smells that create a feeling of disarray, it's a whole number of things. I go to Soapers in Nunhead, I wouldn't waste my money on Moxons. Soapers don't have the same issue with regards smells of gone off fish (edited to clarify some of the shops along rye lane do smell of gone off produce, I wasn't referring to Moxons, I just think Moxons is overpriced). SJ I agree that Smiths probably didn't think the area was viable any longer, however, as demographics change in an area chain go and come back again. Some of the chains are leaving at a major junction in the road ahead for Peckham, and I personally can only conclude it is because of other factors associated with the nature of Rye Lane and it's reputation for being one dimensional in terms of its shopping options. Louisa.

Forest Hill still has one SJ, and that's hardly a major retail destination. Currys still have a shop in Surrey Quays too as far as I'm aware. Louisa.

That's when the environmental health people can be bothered to go down there. So many of those shops must be selling out of date 'fresh' food items, because as Dulwich Fox points out, a fishmonger for example should smell of the sea- not gone off fish. The romantic image of Rye Lane is grating. It isn't romantic, it's disgusting. Louisa.

am absolutely mixed retail should always be the aim of every high street. We seem to do it so badly in this part of south London. Rye Lane could be a good example to other areas when you look at the capacity of the area as a whole. A restoration of the shop fronts should also be top priority, there is no need for smelly meat and fish displays out onto the streets, I find it really disgusting. I also agree with Fox, if Brixton market can do it so well why can't Peckham? There is NO excuse for the dilapidated state of that street whatsoever, and neither is there for the samey dull cheap nasty shops selling smelly food items. Louisa.

Perhaps not deliberately PokerTime, but local and national government seem to use experimental methods to deal with the working poor, and always have done. The middle classes would be up in arms if a compulsory purchase scheme popped up in an affluent area because an important rail link needed to be built. Just as they have with regards the station redevelopment at Peckham Rye. You don't think of them as being mad for wishing to protect the artists studios and incoming businesses aimed at a the Shoreditch blow-ins, and yet I am considered slightly insane for suggesting the condition of this street is diabolical and has needed addressing for years? One rule for some, another for someone else. Housing provision in the 1960s was a big issue, and during this period inner London had a falling population because they called these communities slums- despite the fact most of the people were hard working. They tore families apart because rather than invest in making these areas better by improving the buildings they found it easier to move all the people out of London to new towns, pull it all down and stick up sub standard concrete slabs with no thought behind the damage it would be doing to the people who would eventually be forced to live in these large concrete prisons. Your point about neighbours not needing each other as they did in the 60s is not relevant here. That's an organic change over time. These places had the heart ripped out of them when communities and families living close to one another were still important aspects of city life. Rye Lane isn't just about a lack of chain stores. I understand retail isn't an immobile beast. It is adapting and changing all the time. I have two conflicting things I so dislike about Rye Lane. The first being, yes it does fit the demographic of the area as it is today, but does that mean it has to be dirty and smelly just for the sake of it? Why can it not be clean and tidy with people obeying the rules regarding parking and refuse collection? Why should anyone be forced to shop in such a dirty environment? My other main gripe is that this is the largest remaining retail plot of land for a good few miles and as the demographic of the area is constantly changing it should reflect that in every sense. Most of those businesses down there are all of the same kind, why can there not be room for others to open up? Why does Lordship Lane have the same problem? Estate agent after estate agent. Mixed retail representing everyone should be the answer and council can play a role in facilitating this. I do not wish to have to travel miles out of my way to do my shopping just because everywhere around me is so pointless. It shouldn't have to be this way. Louisa.

KK I'm not the only one who "liked it as it was". So presuming no-one listens to me for that reason is a bit ridiculous. I don't like Rye Lane as it is, and I know exactly how it got there. Louisa.

PokerTime how do I shoot myself in the foot? Explain please. I don't despise the working poor, I do my best to stand up for them on this forum when you look at all the changes brought to the area by wealthy cash buyers. How is it about me? Lots of people feel as I do, are you suggesting that they are all ignorant for holding these beliefs, and you are somehow enlightened in some way because you feel differently? Patronising beyond words. FYI the North Peckham Estate WAS a social experiment. Many of the old dilapidated homes in Peckham had a strong sense of community and those communities were broke up because the government presumed knocking down rather than renovating was a good idea, destroying working class communities and sending them off into the suburbs. The traditional industries had been on their way out for years and they felt it was acceptable to come to an area like Peckham, Deptford et al and destroy that community because they 'knew best'. As a result of poor planning and sociological political decisions Peckham had a fragmented population (as did East Dulwich). And how are the businesses on Rye Lane working class? Have you done a survey of them? I was very vocal back in the 80s and 90s and it fell on deaf ears with our council. They didn't care about the working class areas of London until it becomes a big media thing or posh people want to buy up housing stock. Louisa.

KK in your opinion. In mine and many others it is not. And no one else listens to is or takes our concerns into account. Louisa.

PokerTime. I find it a bit of a cop out to conclude my dislike of Rye Lane is purely based upon the demographic. I love markets, and I can and do accept that London is constantly changing. Peckham has been in decline for at least four decades following the building of the North Peckham Estate. As Nigello points out, it's this appreciation of something just because it is cool and edgy that winds me up so. That's why I have such a dislike of the Hipster folk who move into similar areas. They tend to be middle/upper class younger folk, generally white, generally from the Home Counties, never roughed it in their lives who move somewhere like Peckham or Hackney and patronise the locals with comments about how amazing it is to walk out into this utopian environment of lovely smells and earthy shops selling their exotic wares in an honest fashion. They overlook the fact that Rye Lane was trodden into the ground alongside all of Peckham and forgotten about by the state for a couple of generations because of the failure of the social experiment known as the North Peckham Estate. That's why we have these shops here, because no one else wanted to come, until now of course, cos apparently it's "cool" to have a once great shopping destination turned into a stinking rotten mess where people can illegally park and rotten food items along with hair extensions can be strewn across the streets making the place unsightly for everyone. What a dive. More retail variety please. Oh maybe now the wealthy gentrifiers have moved in this will happen, cos the working classes don't really get a voice do they. Louisa.

Even H Samuels has gone. Smiths gone too. What's replaced them? One is another butcher, the other is a pound shop. And people have been coming here dressing Rye Lane up as a thriving exotic market place. What a load of tosh. How many of the same thing does one street need? Louisa.

EDF gold once again. Louisa.

PokerTime, I'm not stupid, I do understand that fish and meat have a certain aroma. My gripe is with the manner in which whole shop fronts have been unsympathetically ripped out with unattractive shutters replacing them, with shop after shop all looking and smelling the same. It never feels clean down there, and yes I have seen rodents around because rubbish has not been appropriately stored for collection. In summer it can become unbearable down there in hot weather. On the point of chains, Peckham was once famous for its large chains and independent department stores. Wishing them back isn't just some fantasy, it is something a lot of local people have been wanting for many years now because there is ample retail space down there for this to happen. There is no comparison between LL and Rye Lane in my book. Neither service me. One is overpriced tat, the other is underpriced tat. I want a return to a happy medium. Louisa.

Well as a proud born and raised Peckhamite, not a recent Home Counties blow in who thinks it's cool and edgy to buy meat and fish from a smelly shop which has had the front ripped out, I can say I personally do not find anything in that road useful to me at all. Even the remaining chains are predominantly pointless. I appreciate the demographic has changed in Peckham, and the street is thriving and useful to the people who use it now, but for me it isn't and hasn't been for some years. Louisa.

ED - NAGAIUTB Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Louisa Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > families doing up old houses (aka gentrifiers) > > EFA - surely that would be re-gentifiers? Depends how wealthy the area was in its previous heyday. Many of the Victorian terraces were built for lower middle class families, I'm pretty sure the people moving in buying the deteriorated properties are going to be fairly wealthy seeing as these homes are selling for 500k plus in the Bellenden renewal area (and that's a fairly conservative estimate). Louisa.

As pointed out in an enormous number of exhausted threads, Rye Lane was allowed to deteriote beyond recognition due to the Threat of the Rail link in the 1980s. Big retails moved out yadda yadda and whole shops were sold at knock down prices to small predominantly ethnic businesses who aimed their wares at an increasingly diverse population, which obviously didn't and hasn't appealed to the people who used to shop their (generalisation but predominantly true) etc etc... Anyway, (running around in a circle yet again). I grew up in Peckham, it isn't the same place in terms of major retailers it once was, all the big names and high end brands have long gone. My gripe is- no one cared about Peckham for years until some artists moved in and the rents gradually rose putting the place back on the map again. Followed hotly on the heels by cash rich families doing up old houses (aka gentrifiers) which all coincided with the opening of Overground and now the redevelopment of the station area. When it suits these people to be "concerned" about somewhere, it's a big major campaign, when no one really gave a toss about the place back in the dark days of the 80s and 90s with high rises, crime and gangs- Peckham was just forgotten about. I find all the recent interest patronising and a bit late for those who have suffered in the area for many years. Seems ironic everyone cares now the middle Englanders are moving in looking for a bargain. Louisa.

Jeremy, when there are two bottles in the cupboard there's no point drinking one ;) Louisa.

Yummies with over the top kiddy cyclists bombing on ahead of them on the pavement nearly knocking innocent elderly or disabled folk off their feet annoy the hell out of me too. Louisa.

fernado do you have lots of mixed nuts left over from Christmas still? So do I, it's always a chore worrying about what to do with them. Great idea btw. Louisa.