RosieH

I think, much like the debate itself, people can be multi-faceted

Randomly, I have if anyone would like it, series 2, but it has two copies of disc 5 and no disc 3. I appreciate this is perhaps not a very tempting offer, but I couldn't wait for Amazon to send me the replacement and went out and bought another copy. Free to anyone who wants it.

Brendan Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ?In 78 years I have seen amazing human progress > but no change to human happiness.? > > - Me dad to me, over a beer, at his last birthday > party. Brendan, I think I may have just fallen in love with your dad. "Less is only more when more is no good" - Frank Lloyd Wright

A little bit more - Dr Hook

Michael Palaeologus Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Citing drug abuse and people trafficing is an easy > way of attacking prostitution but is not born out > by proper research or indeed pragmatic rational > thinking. Michael, i think you're missing the point. I don't think anyone has said that all prostitutes are trafficked. The point about trafficking, about drug abuse, about violence against female prostitutes (and probably also male, though I haven't seen statistics on that) is not that 100% of prostitutes suffer these things, but that not 100% do not. Neither has anyone said prostitution is bad I don't think. The point I was trying to make was that not all prostitution is the fantastically empowering career choice being suggested on this thread. For many people, it is a bleak and miserable existence. And yes, many people may find their 9-5 a bleak and miserable existence, but the analogy is rather casually drawn. Coming to the office on a daily basis doesn't increase my chances of being violently assaulted (the tube notwithstanding), nor of my being addicted to class A drugs. I am a feminist, but I don't have any "feminist" concerns that all men are rapists (Chav, are you not a feminist?? or probably the speech marks indicated something you consider not to be very sisterly..?) Personally, I am all for whatever steps need to be taken for prostitutes to live safely and happily, but I don't think turning a blinkered eye to all the realities of an argument is going to help advance that cause.

Good point kk - never meant to imply otherwise but the thread had been talking about women and I followed the shorthand (assume therefore that the terrible fault lies with all posters and not just me..?) Wrist slapped I should of course point out that I care deeply also for the minority of prostitutes who are men. And for my personal experience, I have known two men who worked as prostitutes for a time. Both thought it would be empowering, neither found it to be so: one became depressed and turned to drugs; the other quit and went on to have a brilliant career in the film industry. Two sides... (edited because I got out of bed in a proper narky mood this morning and no one needs to see that)

Whoa, I don't recall saying all prostitutes are sex slaves - I said that everything is far from the rosy picture painted on this thread. Neither did I call for a ban on prostitution. I'm not na?ve about this - my concern is for women. If criminalising the purchase of sex makes them safer, great. If legalising prostitution makes women safer, also great.I think the point is that we don't know and we're trying to work it out, but refusing to acknowledge the situation in the round isn't going to help come to an informed decision. Research can be used to show what you want it to - Chav, would be really interested to see any you have. I genuinely want to be well-informed on this. All the research I've seen to date shows that ALL prostitutes (not just those trafficked) are at higher risk of class A drug addiction (about 75 percent of prostitutes in studies I've read are addicted to heroin or crack) and at much higher risk of violence. I'm going from data from the Home Office and from the Fawcett Society, and if there are more studies out there that tell the other side of the story then I'd love to see them. Like I say, my concern's for women. Dom, I don't doubt for a second the validity of your friends' experiences, but as has been discussed elsewhere on the forum, one good experience doesn't tell the entire story. And I'm not a hairdresser - my hairdresser probably earns a hell of a lot more than me given the amount she charges. (With apologies for typos but none for opinions - on the crackberry)

and meant to say, good luck Chav! good to hear all sides of the debate

Domitianus Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- ... prostitution nonetheless is a profession that can often allow a woman control of what she does and allow her to have real financial freedom... The main thing that prevents prostitutes more widely achieving these standards is punitive legislation and social stigmatisation. really??? tell that to any of the estimated 10,000 women trafficked to this country and living in slavery, that it's only nimbyism stopping them achieving real financial freedom. while they're beaten, raped and forced to have sex with strangers 20, 30 times a day, have their passport taken away, and make not a penny, except for the rich c*nt who shipped them over here. Chav may well have had an overwhelmingly positive, empowering, experience, and I applaud her for that: if it allowed her to take control of her life then brilliant. But it's very very far from being the case for every woman (increased likelihood of addiction, rape, violence, murder anyone?) Domitianus, your comment about hair dressers or leaflet handlers beggars belief and is pretty insulting.

down in the tube station at midnight - the jam

Life in a Northern Town - Dream Academy

SeanMacGabhann Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > it's too close to home and it's too near the bone I'd vote for Morrissey for mayor

you got a friend - James Taylor

back to the original question - my point of view would be classic all the way - unless you can be arsed to update your library regularly. I bought a nano thinking 1000 songs would be plenty - as it turns out, it really isn't. I'm bored and too busy to update, so get a big one and put all the songs you like on there, rather than having to whittle

Before today, I would have said Ken all the way. I'm a fan of his work. However the Standard's war against him - has that borne real fruit? Listening to him on the radio this morning talking about corruption allegations, I felt placated. but is there no smoke without fire, or is he a contraversial figure, forever the subject of a right wing witch hunt?

I don't understand - are we now making black pudding out of fantasy lions and pregnant donkeys? that would be an expensive pudding and no mistake - tasty though I bet

curry sauce fountain, mmmmmmmmmmmmmmm............. *dribbles onto keyboard*

Keef Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Yeah, why not gravy, it would be a huge winner, > I'm certain! not gravy on the fish, ooh no, that's deviant talk. Although I do like it on my chips (the Rock and Sole Place in Covent Garden does chips and gravy, only London chippy I've found that does)

Land of Make Believe - Bucks Fizz

is the answer to the question "when is the right time for me to have children" not simply "when the time is right for you"? modern healthier lifestyles mean that some women having children in their 30s and 40s are going to be much healthier than those in their teens and 20s. Equally, with other women, the reverse will be true. Some teenagers have a fantastic support network, others have social services. Some women won't feel emotionally equipped to have a child until they're much older, and although their ovaries may have been in better shape 10 years previously, the child's probably going to be much happier with a mum who can cope. Horses for courses - like I'm sure many people have said, one size doesn't fit all.

To be honest, my decision wasn't difficult in the least. I feel like I ought to feel bad about saying that, but I've never had a moment's doubt or regret. There have been a few tears and a little sadness in the years since, but the decision was utterly straightforward. At the time I thought my parents would throw me out. My dad had on a number of occasions intimated that should my sister or I ever find ourselves in that situation, that would be our fate. In hindsight, I don't know that would have been the case, but I did feel I couldn't tell them. Also, and I'm not particularly proud of this, but for me there would have a huge stigma attached to having a child so young, no pride whatsoever. I wasn't that type of girl: I was clever and had a bright future and university to look forward to - a child was beyond anything I could countenance. Hope that doesn't sound too hard.

I think ignoring the problem til it's too late is spot on - sounds facile but I found myself empathising with Hollyoaks recently when one of the teenage characters just kept putting off finding out whether she was pregnant until it was too late. I became pregnant when I was 16 and thought I had loads of time to sort it out - but to be honest I never really wanted to know. Of course I knew about contraception: I was well-educated, I was on the pill, but I'd probably missed taking a few and didn't give it much thought (assuming of course that it would never happen to me). But it did, and with putting things off for so long, when I did go and see the doctor I was nearly 12 weeks and he told me it was too late for an abortion - waiting lists being as they are on the NHS. Still no idea if this was true, or if he was, in his way, trying to make me keep the baby. But I went privately and had a termination - was expensive for a 16 year old (didn't tell my parents at the time, came clean to my mum a couple of years ago) - but they treated me with huge kindness and I was fine. Learned a lesson the hard way.

Why - Carly Simon

Zebedee Tring Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Agree with citizen ED. It's striking how often > some posters on this MB seem to turn discussions > into class issues, whether we're talking about > Caffee Nero, rude people on trains, the persian > cats of ED, or wha'ever. perhaps, perhaps: but in this instance there was a particular trigger and that was the casual use of the word "chav", which many, myself included, find offensive. the word is absolutely loaded with class connotations (google "chav" and "working class" to see the evolution of the debate - it's been raging for a good couple of years) so it's little wonder that the thread turned to the thorny subject of the British class system. If anything, I suspect we're more acutely aware of it in East Dulwich, where we sit in increasingly affluent gift-shop splendour, cheek by jowl with the largely less well-off Peckham.

Ever fallen in love with someone (you shouldn't have fallen in love with) - Buzzcocks