Sephiroth

Time will tell Sure. Look of it goes well I?ll be a relieved boy But if it goes as badly as most people involved are predicting the ?Oh well? won?t quite cut it will it foxy?

Me, earlier: "I don't think english exceptionalism is confined to the well off " I didn't expect such a swift and un-self-aware response -- bless you Foxy "Why are they not sending money to us. London. Why are we NOT in charge. ?? " In charge? of who exactly?? The EU is a political construct engaged in mutual cooperation. It hasn't invaded anybody. There is no single country "in charge" "So lets not worry too much about a No Deal Brexit. Leave and get on with it." I get told off constantly for saying many leavers are ignorant - but come on people!!!!

Yep - something along those lines but I don't think english exceptionalism is confined to the well off If I look at the people who suffered most because of austerity in countries like Ireland you don't see anything like the same hostility to the EU Those right wing papers get sold in Ireland but of course those particular stories are left out or recast - is it the media's fault for pushing an anti eu agenda or is it just that they sell what people want to buy? I guess I'm pointing the finger at voters more than many others appear happy to. yes politicians are cowardly and won't tell them the truth, and similarly media - but voters still need to take responsibility for this

"It was about people feeling that they had no control over their lives, or a general sense of injustice and a system which wasn't working for the majority." This is a reason commonly cited but I always feel obliged to point out a) it was as much the smug, fat complacent golf club bores that voted for brexit as anyone else b) other countries (included some in the UK, as well as EU) have plenty of people who have a similar sense of injustice etc etc - but THOSE countries (quite correctly) don't see leaving the EU as an answer to that So there is something else going on here with England (and Wales to a degree) and Englishness IMO

I?m reminded of Brigg?s ?when the wind blows? Nuclear bomb is coming but plucky Brits receive government leaflets on how to prepare - so they convince themselves it?ll all be alright in the end Do we need a spoiler alert? Things were not alright in the end

Oh i know about the legality of it - I?ve long argued with leavers and Some remainders that we can do this It?s the doing it whilst also Saying you might trigger again and possibly quite soon that means things become tricksier

"I'd argue that it's much better and healthier for democracy to have an owner that is happy to cater for both readerships of the Brexit divide than solely being in favour of one side" I see this a lot - I'm not sure how it works in practice tho I think the best course would be to revoke, whilst telling Leave voters that we are doing so simply because so much of a mess has been made of this and we have run out of time. Once we revoke we have a national debate about what we are prepared to give up in order to leave the EU. And once the country agrees on what they are prepared to give up then we could try leaving again 2 problems of course (well, at least 2. But for now....) 1) you would be at the mercy of the EU allowing you to revoke if they know they are going to have to go thru all this again 2) The No Deal nutters are vocal and wouldn't allow it But in no universe will I ever equate No Dealers vs Remainers as in any way equivalent levels of extremes. They simply are very very different things. Any mid point between Remaining and No Deal simply begs the question "why bother?" Sure I could LIVE with some pseudo-Norway type deal but it wouldn't please leavers and it wouldn't please remainers and it would only temporarily satisfy some notion of "balance"

"the EU Will make Ireland set up a hard border to protect their money" this was my favourite bit from keano. England and wales vote to take control of their borders completely oblivious to outer countries. then gets huffy when those countries say they need to protect their borders Imagine No deal but somehow there is no border - imagine the British people "with legitimate concerns about immigration" seeing anyone from EU cross into UK without checks because there is no border

Quite so DR It?s madness to think the whole country isn?t seeing what?s happening and nit changing it?s collective mind I also believe there is a massive numbers of people who publicly give it the ?big ?un? re Brexit (because they think they might sound weak/traitorous/whatever) but in privacy of a polling booth will knock this on the head What people like dbboy really fear is being found out for being such a relatively small minority with nothing like a mandate for their folly

Good luck getting mays deal ?with a few t?s crossed and i?s dotted? past this level of lunacy https://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/1156012/boris-johnson-tory-leadership-latest-brexit-news-priti-patel

Given the stakes it matters a hell of a lot

And who will you blame if it goes as badly as people like me say it will dbboy?

Lets go back to Ireland again That 45% losing side became a very decisive Two thirds majority. That resolves a lot of things Any way in which you can stop this and reset the clock, prevents further* damage to the fabric of the country. People who still want to leave them get to regroup and define what kind of future leave state they think would work and can spend years campaigning for that. But at least we have contro Of our destiny again. We keep all of the trade agreements and we can rethink how we balance the economy * too much damage has already been done with business leaving, citizens worried and of course reputations damage. But that is done now

Oh I?m not blaming you or anyone for changing their minds. I welcome it But having changed your mind you should at least recognise how slim that majority was for such a major problematic change and the need for any progress to be on a robust foundation It isn?t my fault you can?t see how a second referendum can happen. Simple fact is other countries do it and have done it. - but you still argue that that is fundamentally wrong. I agree with you on Boris tho. I have long argued he is more likely to pivot than Corbyn.

Yeah but that?s the past. We have to take responsibility for what we do from here on in Because people will be looking for someone to blame. And the papers will be keen to help them. And Cameron won?t cut it (I?ll be blaming people like you btw. People who stood between any reasonable way of preventing this mess. Then. And now. Maybe that?s harsh. But then again maybe you?ll change your mind once more are realise the stakes are too high and we will have a revocation or a referendum where we can count all the other people who have changed their mind too. That would be nice. Then I wouldn?t have to blame anyone)

But it wasn?t the question I asked you Who will you blame if it all goes tits up?

Thanks for coming back. Given the likely candidates for Boris cabinet, and indeed the profile of people voting for him I can?t see that happening. Plus Farage and co won?t okay ball. And who in this scenario is accepting the Irish backstop exactly? All of this on a commons majority of what - 2? But boy does all of that seem like a lot of fuss and bother for a diminished position. If people are so keen to forget about Brexit I?d say revoke and carry on

You do know that support for staying in the eu in Greece and Italy is about 75% right? https://www.indy100.com/article/eu-membership-countries-vote-leave-remain-8888956

Now now. Just an easy illustration. It need not derail us. Out of interest - if predictions of food and medicine shortages in event of no deal come to pass, who will you blame? Or even if a deal is passed but Britain suffers somehow - I?m guessing it won?t be people like you who dismissed people like me? I?m guessing the eu, civil servants and bumbling politicians will be to blame?

?I'm afraid I had to have a little chuckle at that Louisa! I can only say that you must be quite easily shocked...? Don?t worry Jen. Faux-outrage at others whilst being constantly outraged herself (pizza!!!!! It?s just cheese in toast how very dare they!!!?? Is her entire raison d?etre

?population ravaged by austerity were more concerned with other matters, and used the referendum as a opportunity to whack him and his government with a big stick. ? Some people call this cutting off one?s nose to spite ones face Others shorten that to ?stupid? Most eu countries have had austerity. Only England (and wales) dumb enough to think this was an answer Plus the notion that it was the working class what voted leave is over-simplistic. At best.

That is meaningless rhetoric Louisa. You can?t use the phrase ?people?s will? unless you define it and people back it ?Leave the eu? is a many many headed beast with conflicting interpretations. There is no single ?leave?. And it?s plain wrong and dangerous to suggest otherwise

The only rigid position that is shocking is the English governments (wales voted leave but if they voted remain it wouldn?t have made any differences) To pass a treaty that needs unanimous approval is no small thing. If one nation says no a discussion needs to be had about why, what the problem is and what can be done. That happened. It?s democracy in action. Ireland had concerns and they were addressed Any future trade deals with the uk (who will be desperate for any deals) may well require unanimous approval of the eu 27. If one country vetoes a British deal, leaving Britain shafted, should we shrug and accept it. Or do we get back around a table? If you think the uk leaving wont be the end of the world, does that include no deal ? In which case what are you smoking? If it involves a deal, you realise it will be a deal that leaves us worse off and with no say? That might not be the end of the world but people will lose jobs. Why would you? And in any case you have failed to absorb how crazy the no deal wing are. No deal will pass their tests. You are giving up money and jobs and security to crazy people

If Ireland was ?told to vote again until they have the right answer? why would a 53% winning vote become a 32 % losing vote? How does that happen. How do that many people go ?well since you asked again? Between the two votes events changed. The Irish government renegotiated. That was something they could do because they were grown up as and didn?t give away all bargaining power by leaving the eu The stupid stupid English pride - this ?we will show them? is so so damaging If Lou was correct in her interpretation of Ireland you would think Ireland would be mad keen to leave the eu. But they aren?t are they?

Lou?s own words are beyond contempt and not worth responding to. ?I know as well as she does?. Please That she then quotes the lunatic that is Brendan o neil - a man wrong about everything - shows how she processes and absorbs information