Sephiroth

"We have 2.5 years of youngsters coming to voting age since June 2016 mainly supporting remain. This has already been proven to surpass the 2016 lead." I'm not sure how much faith we could put in that number alone - but again without another poll we can never know It's entirely Britain's fault that a second ref would essentially be a rerun of the first one - it never had any cards to play in the first place, has been outclassed every step of the way and was always going to be If it does go ahead with leaving, then it will continue to be outclassed in future trade deals with other large nations - but again, it simply can't admit it

"The EU?s insistence on the backstop " It was Britain which insisted on the backstop - and the EU budged to allow it in Dec 2017. But of COURSE people like you have to keep blaming others - you just can't admit it was a bad, bad mistake Plenty of people have released their mistake* - but of course people like you would deny them the agency to express that. * How many? Enough to change the vote? If only there was a way to measure it

You are just restating your original point - the Irish voters were mugged off. At no point do you address the outcome of that second vote - where Ireland continues to be a democracy, no angry voters and EU membership Why would it be bad if that happened here?

I'm pointing at real world examples - what are you doing?

"I?m not struggling at all. It?s fantasy* to think the people reviewed their decision spontaneously. The facts were your political masters in Ireland and Europe made you vote again because the people gave what they considered the wrong answers. " This is what I mean by delusional - this is pure tin foil nonsense If "our political masters in Ireland and Europe made you vote again" then why would the second vote reverse teh first by such a large margin - seriously, why? And if it was fixed somehow, why weren't people protesting? And why has support for EU membership remained so high? You simply don't have any answers - because you live in a made up world

which bit is "say so" Which bit are you struggling with?

Why does that put me on dodgy ground? It's exactly the point I'm making A country took a poll, reviewed the changes and outcome and took a second poll democracy didn't fall people didn't riot Support for EU remained high that's a mature process - the opposite of this country

"well, not really true" sorry but it's exactly true - and all you have to do is look at other countries with more practice in referendums It's tricky to implement the referendum result because it's impossible to do - that leave vote contains at least 3 groups of mutually antagonistic types of leaver. They will never agree on what they want or will compromise on All brexits lead to a worse off country to say it's because of the EU is... well.. bluster and arrogance at best. Ignorance is involved too. Sorry - but it is

Doesn't even need buying - seems there are enough punters out there happy enough to not ask any questions and wave the whole thing thru, ignoring precedent from other countries Bluster and arrogance - all it takes to screw a country

That is genuinely upsetting Was that a Parkhill property? Wonder why the lease isn't being extended Apart from friends and family, Palmerston was one of the few businesses I miss after leaving SE22

I've said many a time - this country just doesn't get referendums The idea that a narrow vote, involving illegal money and a massive upheaval to this country (and many others) has exactly the same mandate 3 years on after everyone involved has buggered off is for the birds (or, the willfully stubborn)

Good games. Not flawless. What?s your point? What does this have to do with Brexit - apart from you trying to sound superior ?

Ah look - someone has found google.

"I might as well say in 10 years time Remainers on the edf will be shaking uncleglen?s hand and thanking him and fellow leavers for liberating them and giving them and their children a brilliant future." sure keano - I'm sure you can find vast majority of experts to back up a strawman argument like that robbin - reduced to picking up typos from a phone posting. Oh dear. Obviously you are correct about the spelling and the use of periods. But to what end? Joe - I don't think I said you were insulting? I certainly didn't mean to. As I said, I'm in broad agreement with you. But your points on the Irish border only underline keano and robbin's behaviour - there is nothing you can say that won't be dismissed by them and people like them. Government impact reports, border experts, economists that aren't Minford - none of them mean a damned thing They (robbin and keano) are dangerous quacks, and trying to find common ground with them is futile. They have their heads down and will do and say anything to see this through. Even if they did vote remain. The notion that somehow, if only I was nicer, reached out more, didn't poke fun at them or typed my sentences more carefully would in any way elicit a more genuine response is for the birds. Mention Ireland before the referendum? Gets glossed over. Mention anything else that's about to happen and be catastrophic after March 2019? Get dismissed as "not factual" But they are only 2 examples of why this country is so banjaxed and is happy to take others down with it But when it all comes crashing down I can hear robbin's words of apology - and now helpful spelling and syntax critique as well - to comfort myself with

But given that it was discussed (and dismissed) why do you think that was? A genuine, palpable, close to home threat, with serious bloodshed in living memory - not taken onboard by voters (including people like you who were paying close attention - but the two high profile articles I linked to made no impression) Versus Turkey!!! Joining!!!! Man the lifeboats!!!! That?s just weird to me. But that was then. Here in 2019, we know more - so anyone who is still, yknow, shruggy, about the consequences of leaving, instead of saying ?this is madness. Press pause. Rethink? is simply not to be trusted Maybe they aren?t all racists, stupid or naive. But they are still wreckless and wrong Britain will be worse off. And will have endangered lives. Simple solution is to not do it. Every serious problem solved

Joe. I?m in broad agreement with you. But I posted just two high profile links about Ireland from before the referendum It?s not on to say it wasn?t discussed.

that.. that's your reply? And you call me lame? You bought UKIP propaganda - that's on you

Cameron might have supported it - but it wasn?t going to happen But fears of it happening were used by UKIP and co http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/politicsandpolicy/unfounded-claim-turkey-swing-brexit-referendum/ https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/jul/16/michael-gove-admits-leave-was-wrong-to-fuel-immigration-fears https://www.express.co.uk/comment/expresscomment/672624/turkey-joining-eu-disaster-britain-brexit

Indeed Jenny, indeed But this view of Ireland isn't the only thing they write that's revealing robbin for example, thinks that he/she can say "I vote remain" as some kind of brexit crucifix whilst simultaneously repeating every wishful-thinking/half-baked theory from the UKIP/Brexiteer perspective (Turkey joining! Siding with keano (who isn't quite uncleglen in terms of extremism.. but they live in the same neighborhood) - and then claims it as an example of the kind of objectivity I lack And that haughty - "Well If I'm wrong about the projected catastrophe I'll apologize" - as if that's of any use to anyone. It's simply delusional, last days of empire thinking

"You may not be totally objective on this point Sephiroth" hark at Mr objective there. Brits belittling thick Paddies again. Instead of saying "you may not be totally objective" - how about going with "as you know more about Ireland than I do..." robbin - stop saying that I'm trying to claim you voted Leave. I keep making the same point today - you are very relaxed about Leaving. But as you aren't reading what I'm saying, I'm not sure you are in any position to wag your finger and scold me about my objectivity, lack of You voted remain and have said so repeatedly - I am merely saying your posts read like a Leaver. Both of those things can be true

given the number of people happy saying things like "ireland is just a pawn", you'll forgive me if I don't believe any of those people saying they have Ireland's interests at heart And that's the nicest thing leave-leaning English people say - it's usually much more insulting and often racist than that figure out where the border is and show a bit of respect before you claim to have our interests at heart https://www.thejournal.ie/brexit-ireland-border-2-3721935-Nov2017/

Rereading robbin's posts from around the referendum, it's hard to square them with someone who didn't want to Leave as well as the quote below, there was a whole bit about if we remain Turkey will definitely be joining the EU which is straight out of the UKIP/Leave playbook robbin: "I wouldn't panic if I were you, in the (unlikely) event there is a 'Leave' majority vote this week. The sky won't fall in. Longer term we will also be able to enter into free trade agreements with huge markets like India and China, which we are barred from doing individually as part of the EU (the EU talks opened with India in relation to their massive economy in 2007, but still no great progress!). Australia is another Commonwealth country we have always had close ties with (as with India) but which we are barred from having our own free trade deal with as part of the EU. There will be plenty of economic opportunities far exceeding those in the EU (in regard to which, after all, we are net importers, not net exporters). It would be a shame if because of scaremongering from people who cannot be trusted (eg Dodgy Dave), or people with vested interests, you took a short term view and left to move abroad to some EU country. Go for the sunshine by all means, or the food, but not for the wrong/short term reasons!"

"I?d agree Ireland has been a tool for both sides on this, and I think it?s interesting no one, absolutely no one, was talking about the border during the campaign. Because no one had a clue what to do about it. " sorry Joe - but this is bobbins on two counts Ireland is a smart enough country to not be a tool on anyone side - bit of an insulting comment tbh Secondly - people WERE talking about it - but they were either nobodies like me, someobodies that are people who are now disliked, like Blair, or generally dismissed as part of Project Fear Like so much of this, we are in a mess precisely because this country is insufficiently interested in listening to others here are two big names talking about Ireland weeks before the referendum https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jun/09/tony-blair-and-john-major-brexit-would-close-irish-border Here is Boris Johnson dismissing fears months before the referendum https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-35692452

"happy to leave, think > everything will be ok or amazing" I didn't think painted you as a die hard Leave voter? I just thought it was a summary of your current position? As for the tone of the debate - look, I'm sorry if you don't like it. But not EVERYTHING has a weighty balance of pros and cons. Somethings are self-evidently bad - this is one of them, It's not my fault if you are determined to find the pros. We COULD debate for ever - it won't change the actuality that we are currently scheduled to leave the EU in a couple of weeks, without a deal with widely predicted catastrophic consequences. And we are doing it led by a shower of inadequates, and a similar opposition. The Leave leaders at time of referendum have walked away from positions in cabinet and abandoned the country to even lesser intellects

Two things will happen 1) we leave the EU - with or without a deal. It will be either hideous or so hideous as to be untenable. Either way, we will, without any shadow of a doubt, be applying to join the EU at some point in the future. And of course we won't have any of the opt outs we have now# 2) We revoke A50 and cancel Brexit and save everyone a lot of pain, worry and time. I don't really care how - I tried to be nice and support another referendum but too late for that now SO my advice to Leavers would be ditch the ego, and the fevered dreams and do this sooner rather than later Of course, the reaction to this will be "you are arrogant, attitudes like that etc etc" - I literally don't care. What I DO care about is the state of the country - you are not taking a responsible attitude towards it. You are taking a highly dangerous attitude towards it - that's on you and has nothing to do with what I say or how I say it