miga

Various incorrect spellings of definitely.

Loads of the successful London schools that keep on being referred to are already selective (in different ways). They're just not called grammars. (you're forgetting all the many Grauniad writers who were privately educated - but let's get our knickers in a twist about grammars.)

So, anyone know what the actual proposal is?

Cords are classics, just like Cons, blue jeans or cotton t shirts. That's why you could always get all these items from any high street chain. All these items have versions at all price points.

Steady diet of Steely Dan for two weeks.

Aristide Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > takes your mind off Brexit though doesnt it? > Especially to the majority of little englanders > that voted brexit to prevent immigration, there > not going to get that, but they might get their > grammars back. > > Smoke and mirrors What a condescending line of thinking. Does it compute that some immigrants think selective education is a good idea and Brexit wasn't? Mind....blown! By the way, it's "they're", not "there".

Words like Tory, grammar, socialist seem to cause strong allergic reactions in some. Thinking can sometimes become very uptight, as the Dude in Big Lebowski would have phrased it.

rahrahrah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Evidence is that > grammar schools are bad for social mobility and > bring overall attainment down. A few things. Firstly - that's not evidence, that's an assertion. Secondly, if you look at the painstakingly non-partisan Full Fact summary you linked to, they're careful to refer to the "current" and "existing" grammar system. (What happens when a lot more grammar places free up? What shape will the new grammars take?) Thirdly - the conclusion they draw is very qualified, it's really not that black and white - it includes words like "slightly" and "marginally" in front of "worse" or "better". (I mean, why are the comprehensives in Kent worse than in other areas?) Finally - social mobility is a generally good idea, but it's only one aspect of what education is about.

I think what the links from rah^3 state is that in grammar counties, the poorer kids slightly underperform their peers in non-grammar counties, while the brightest pupils do marginally better. That's in the current system. There is no evidence about widespread grammar introduction (obvs. - it hasn't happened yet, and 50 years is a long time). As far as university entrance as a measure of any kind of academic achievement, I'm unconvinced.

rahrahrah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > We actually do pretty well in getting the > brightest kids to university. Where we should be > concentrating is on those who underachieve where > we do very poorly, comparatively. Is that the aim - to get kids into university? Not much of a bar, is it?

LondonMix Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The hit rate is pretty high though the grip isn't > exclusive. So all those guys get great jobs but > most of their colleagues won't have gone to those > schools if you know what I mean. Right - same as here and in Oz then. I think that's what people mean when they talk about entrenching privilege, social mobility blah blah - you're likely to do well if your parents do well. > I think there are people who are clearly defined > as middle class because of the way they speak and > other social elements of how they live (dress, > sports the watch etc). Someone earning the exact > same amount without those specific cultural > affectations would be considered working class. > That's the bit that's different. I talking about > a level well below Dukes :) I understand that, but it winds me up, in case that wasn't obvious :-) I think there are so many myths about social class, and people tie themselves into knots trying to conform to these. I think as a society we're going backwards into these stupid stories following what was in the end a fairly progressive era. "Oooh, look at Prince George in his lovely little outfit with his very expensive nanny by his side". Slight vom. The Duke thing was just illustrative of the "money != class" thing, another nonsense in my view. "Class" in this sense is a set of behaviours that allow people to stratify (accent, aesthetics, posture, poor dental hygiene), and the "money != class" thing lends it a veneer of some kind of innate, "natural" state of being. In reality it's just some made up mumbo jumbo to entrench privilege once you have a bit, and these myths help perpetuate the "especial" nature of class behaviours. It's the Mitford sisters' "u" and "non u" mysticism. (That was a bit ranty).

Yeah - but the current focus of state education is to raise the general level, rather than to squeeze out the best from the best. So it really depends on what you're measuring.

I don't know the US - but it would be interesting to see the hit rate for the "top jobs" from the schools you mention. Also - I've heard this "money isn't class" thing bandied about, and I think it's a myth. Maybe an outlier here and there, sure, but there's surely strong correlation between the two. The duke fallen on hard times....gimme a break, two generations of that, and as Kenny Powers would say, "you're f***** out".

???? Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > To some degree: > > Shallow > Gambler > Showman > Not much depth > Lack of judgement > > But had some principles and was genuinely a > liberal conservative - gay marriage made > absolutely no sense for him to champion from a > political point of view and his apology on Bloody > Sunday was immediate and heartfelt and refreshing > from a politician (in comparison with the > Equivalence that Corbyn has to put in on any kind > of statement against Terrorism/online > intimidation/anti-semitism by comparison). > > Also, he managed to pull together a coalition in > very, very difficult conditions which stopped this > country going bankrup. Though many on the left > seem to think this was not necessary....... > > In terms of history - the Referendum was poor > judgement and but my feel is that it would have > come in the end whatever I agree ???? - he wasn't an intellectual giant, but neither was he some fuddy duddy old "bring back the Empire" little colonel.

TheCat Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > boguns are like chavs. Is 'chav' a class too? > > and im not saying there's no class snobbery at > all. But its not even a patch on how people think > about it here..... Jeepers....here's some for starters: http://affirmpress.com.au/publishing/the-bogan-delusion/ https://www.amazon.co.uk/Chavs-Demonization-Working-Owen-Jones/dp/1844678644

TheCat Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Aristide Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > "There's middle class and middle class" > > I'm from Australia, where there really isnt such > an identifiable class system to speak of. Sure > there's rich and poor, but its not so ingrained > 'where you come from', unless you're talking about > geography. I also grew up in Australia, and think the idea that Australia is a "classless" society (not in the "Kath and Kim" sense, but in the sense of an absence of entrenched social divisions according to who your parents are) is one of those national myths people tell themselves to make themselves feel a bit better (file next to "mateship", the "fair go" and being "easygoing"). Australia has the exact same historical class structures (exclusive schools, yacht clubs, perfectly manicured posh, monocultural neighbourhoods) as England.

LondonMix Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Making cultural enrichment > accessible to all pupils and have it organised > through school so parental initiative isn't the > determining factor would be another measure. What do you mean by "cultural enrichment"? We live in London - there is an incredible array of completely free and world class cultural experiences available to kids. On the wider subject of grammar schools - if they became the norm again, thus increasing the number of selective places in total, surely the expensive "gaming" would become less of a factor. I think these are a great idea (but I would, being a third generation selective everything hoop-jumper) - and yes, they do wonders for social mobility. Finally - on getting a "top job". I have the wrong name, the wrong accent and I have never worn a pair of cufflinks. It hasn't stopped me working in the City most of my career (OK - maybe not in a "top job" - I'm not and MD....yet). The trick is to choose a profession that requires technical ability and brains, and to work hard. If you choose a nebulous field like advertising or media (whatever that is) - you'll be judged by nebulous criteria, like what school you went to or where you "summer". Fuck that for a game of soldiers. It's only a game if you choose to play it.

Speaking of Martin Creed, here's one for you ???? :-)in the nicest possible way

Robert Poste's Child Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I would say that the South Bank is now no longer > worth visiting unless you love crowds and eating > overpriced food standing up. Disagree - fun for grown ups, fun for kids, such dense cultural content too (NT, BFI, Royal Phil, Meltdown), plus the freebies like Martin Creed's musical lift in Festival Hall for the kids, the terrace bar on the 4th floor for great uncrowded views etc etc And OK - eating isn't amazing, but the chains, given it's a tourist area, are pretty decent.

In my experience 101 is useless.

the first time I went into the Underworld for a gig post smoking ban was a negative revelation.

jaywalker Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > We were promised > by the OUT vote that EU nationals already here > could stay after exit: that no longer holds. Could you expand on this?

Jah Lush - spare a thought for the goths of Brisbane and Perth then, and let me assure you, there were plenty of those around when I was growing up.

band was around 35-40 years ago...probably for an older audience ;-)

FJDGoose Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > miga Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Great, and very local, band. > > > Couldn't resist > > here's a song about the sunshine dedicated to the sunshine