miga

That too. Though given the Ottomans' Central Asian origins and Genghis Khan's status as a Turkish national hero, you could argue it was a prelude to an unusual period of stability.

Loz Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Non-alcoholic wine Isn't that just grape juice? I like grape juice.

Probably those EU laws at play again.

Actually, a lot of the modern trouble in the Middle East starts with the weakening and loss of the Ottoman Empire, and subsequent on-again off-again meddling by the Western Powers after WWI. As far as the Ottoman Empire starting it all here are things you can Wiki in reverse chronological order: Crusades, Byzantine-Arab wars, Arab siege of Constantinople, Roman-Persian Wars...

It was a bastion of sanity and secularism surrounded by dictatorships and religious lunatics. The army would occasionally crush extremists to preserve Ataturk"s vision. Not this time.

Unlike the rest of Europe, which has always been stable....

There's just a bit of exaggeration in this thread. The DC rumour was that he flopped his chop into a dead pig's head. The reason it took root was that people found it believable as a sort of drunk young posh boy lark. The reason it died as anything other than a source of caricature opportunities is that it was just a rumour. JC doesn't get accused of antisemitism in the press every day, though the Hezbollah thing etc. is brought up fairly regularly. He does get accused of extremism fairly regularly, two days ago in the Telegraph there was a piece entitled "JC has turned Labour into a safe haven for violent thugs" which IMHO is a bit much for the employer of BJ who has been recorded giving details of the address of a guy so his mate could go round and beat him up. There's a spinnable kernel of truth in all of this, it's just how you spin it.

But is it possible to do those things without upsetting the markets? Is that even something that voters care about?

bodsier Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > miga Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > I think you're right DaveR - even though we're > > probably at opposite ends of the political > > spectrum. > > > > Labour (if it wants to stay Labour) is > > unelectable, because the electorate has moved a > > long way to the right. It's an unelectable > > shambles, but if it was run in a more unified > way > > it would just be unelectable. > > > After many years of thatcher and Blair, some have > been indoctrinated to believe that a move to the > right is the way forward. We have been duped > into believing this, irrespective of whether it > benefits us in the long term. Right now the rich > are getting richer, and we have ascending numbers > of food banks and homeless. Wages have been > pushed down, employment rights decimated. The NHS > is being dismantled, along with our education > system. Wars for profit, and the displacement of > millions of families. All a product of a move to > the right. If that is what the centrist/Tory vote > is about....not sure I want any part of it. > Persuade me. Persuade you of what?

Jeremy Wrote: -------------------------------------------- > IMO there's no shame in broadening your appeal to > the middle ground. You can either try to make the > country a better place by compromising. Or you can > stick to your guns and give the opposition free > reign. I'm a permanently disappointed idealist. I tend to think that politics should be about ideological vision and convincing the public about why your vision is right. Which is pretty much the opposite of the real world.

I think you're right DaveR - even though we're probably at opposite ends of the political spectrum. Labour (if it wants to stay Labour) is unelectable, because the electorate has moved a long way to the right. It's an unelectable shambles, but if it was run in a more unified way it would just be unelectable.

???? Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Why is everyone surprised? I get what you're saying about realpolitik, and had similar thoughts. People are surprised because one expectation was that he was about to hide until it all blew over.

Yeah - the divide is blurred, or at least people's sense of their role in society has changed, and their material aspirations have increased.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect a party that represents organised labour not to be "hard left", or have some elements of that. Labour's problem isn't Corbyn, it's that organised labour is a marginal force these days, the world has changed around them. The honest thing would be for the "centrists" to break away and create their own social democratic party or whatever.

Seabag Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ???? Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Actually, 1 person owning a mini is a far more > > selfish use of space if you work it out. > > Predictable targeting though..... > > I've been harbouring an idea for a double-decker > mini and a VWT5 for a while now > > And soon as the ruling elite are freed from the > clutches of Europe, I'm second guessing the > inevitable 'footprint tax' for London cars I heard there will be a free car for everyone, and I believed it.

Often it's that the person in front of you has parked out of sequence, you snuggle up to them, they leave, then you look like the idiot. Hopefully now that the faceless bureaucrats of Europe aren't making our laws, we can execute these villains on sight.

Loz Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > She couldn't take the heat And yet she wants women back in the kitchen.

I like good coffee. But when you're woken up at 5AM by a whingeing toddler who insists on being held, you need something to bring you halfway to the land of the living, and that's when Nespresso shines. Using your one available arm, get cup, pop the pod in, press button, await reasonable approximation of coffee. The milk frothy thing makes excellent babycinos too.

You can go Peckham Rye to City Thameslink and walk a mile or so (20 mins). (My take on this stuff is that multiple changes add uncertainty and have knock-on effects. A long walk on the other side might be slower on paper, but it's a controllable time).

"Brexit: like a box of chocolates".

> Taking back control eh? It was a very powerful slogan. Oh, to have been a fly on the wall in that meeting. I'd love to see the ones that ended up in the bin. "Brexit, for the real you", "Brexit: feel lighter, be happier", "Take a step into the great unknown"....

Robert Poste's Child Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Britain, 30-whatever years after Thatcher and with > Europe's strongest leader also a woman, we could > discuss the candidates without their selection > being qualified by being female. I could be way off but I see this as a symptom of Americanisation of politics here. I think 20 years ago it would have been a bit meh and not a point of particular interest. Now it is. Meanwhile, they seem to be having apoplexies across the pond about the possibility of a female president and vp.

DaveR Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I have no love of T Blair - never voted for him, > never trusted him, never really rated him other > than as a pure politician, and that's not a > quality I admire, to say the least. But almost > everything that has been said about him since the > Iraq war is complete nonsense. Everybody will take > exactly what they want from this report and > ignore/dismiss the rest. what a waste of time and > money. Different readings are inevitable - Tony Blair himself thinks the report has vindicated him. I disagree it was a waste of time and money. Now we know what was known, what was communicated and how the campaign was planned and run, it's there for posterity.

Otta Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Blair's initial statement What a cunt.

???? Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > come on, it doesn't matter if you haven't a plan > in place for these massive decisions sometimes it's in the thrill of the ride.....wheeeeeee...down the toilet...wheeeeeee