miga

An expensive wreath on a perfect front door in the right shade of grey, up a beautifully restored Victorian black and white path, surrounded by a few well tended shrubs....is a tradition deeply rooted in a 2011 issue of Homes Beautiful.

???? Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The point is that the Vote was a defacto vote of > confidence in the Italian PM rather than his > constitutional reform, as he said he's resign if > he lost; he did, he has - there may now be an > election (but not necessarily), in which case the > two big eurosceptic parties (the comedian's one > and the Northern League) are ahead in the polls > and potentially could offer a referendum on > certainly The Euro, more (likely) and maybe the > EU. However getting a majority in Italy is not > easy... Yep, pretty indirect.

red devil Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > but it wasn't a straight forward vote > against the EU. That was my impression too - seems pretty indirect to me. Not that the papers presented it that way in the headlines. "Italians vote on constitutional reform, which may down the road influence their relationship with the EU in an unspecified way" isn't as catchy as "ALARM! ALARM! JUMP OVERBOARD IMMEDIATELY!".

What was the referendum on - and what direct effect will it have on the future of the EU?

Jenny1 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I would say that the political shifts and upsets > we're seeing at the moment are all about the > economy, and more specifically the glaring (and > growing) inequalities within it. There's a sense > that governments are unable, or unwilling, to > shield their citizens when times get tough. > Everything else grows out of that - surely. And > the roots of this are much more about the failure > to respond adequately to the financial crash of > 2007-8 than broader issues of globalisation. Sort of - it's not identity politics itself that has been lowering living standards, but while "the Left" has been focusing on identity politics, a lot of traditional Left issues (workers' rights, jobs etc.) weren't being dealt with by the Left. Or that seems to be the popular feeling. The other aspect is that Labour bought wholesale into free markets, deregulation etc. preceding the GFC, and only with Corbyn in this country appear to return to some of those old points, so when isolationists like Trump come along and offer those old comforts there are people who are very receptive, whose views or needs weren't being addressed. In fact, Trump and Corbyn are, I think, different manifestations of the same underlying problems. An example of the kind of thing I'm thinking of are Trump adverts focusing on Clinton's hedge fund campaign funding.

"As for the future, commentators such as Haidt and Lilla seek a ?post-identity? liberalism, built round a restoration of the nation state as repository of agreed values" I worry about the idea of "agreed values" (like some kind of multinational insurance company). As an immigrant, what I've liked about this country is its tolerance and pragmatism, people don't bang on about being British in the way Americans and Aussies do, for example, and that's nice. Maybe I'm living in a bubble.

You did say that originally - I just can't read :)

Isn't it already outsourced to the private sector - your GP surgery is a private business, no? Maybe they bill that amount back to the NHS.

I think his campaign showed that we are at a weird point in history where you can say any old crap and people will still vote for you. For every time he said "bad hombres" there was a picture of him eating a taco on his Twitter and saying he loves Mexicans. I think he said weird, inconsistent things, and that he's a puffed up demagogue, but he's not a classic racist. By identifying his campaign with racism I think Clinton scored an own goal.

JohnL Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > "travelling the world like gypsies - but with car > insurance" Is thia playing on a stereotype about Romany and car insurance or is it just a bunch of words together?

uncleglen Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > As the Archbishop of Canterbury pointed out- it is > the poor that suffer most under uncontrolled > immigration (since they do not own their own homes > for a start)- so 'the left' have actually > disadvantaged their own historical supporters. It > is easy to be idealistic and altruistic when you > are sitting pretty.....and you have all the > vocabulary to dictate to the dispossessed how they > should think and act. I agree with this, in a way. There's a crossover between what Trump/Farage have offered and a traditional Labour or left position. Protecting working class jobs, putting some barriers up on trade, pulling out of silly wars, "draining the swamp" etc.; these are all things that have been forgotten about by the working class parties. They're extremely unlikely to get any of these things back under Trump, but he's taken up that space very successfully. I think it also shows that the battles around identity politics are totally irrelevant to most people. Think of the reams and reams of paper printed up with stories about transgender rights, Greer's no-platforming, everyday sexism etc. as if those were the burning issues of the day. If I was some unemployed Texan in a former steel mill town, or a resident of Sunderland, I'd gaze upon this as if it was news from another planet.

rendelharris Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ???? Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > So to sum up the great and good of the EDF...I > > think it's a great pity the plebs have the > > vote......yes, pesky democracy eh > > Funny, I said absolutely the opposite - don't > patronise the working class by treating their > voting choice as just an angry tantrum which is > someone else's fault, every adult has a vote and > takes responsibility for how they use it. A > rightwing maniac becomes president and it seems, > to some people, that's not the fault of the people > who voted for him, it's the left's fault really... It's the perennial false consciousness question. Assuming it was the white working class vote swing* that gave Trump the win, and that Trump will indeed be ultimately bad for them**, options include a) they were misled into making a choice that's ultimately bad for them by Capital b) they're responsible adults and knowingly voted for a racist pussy grabber c) some other more complex option. As neither a) nor b) are very nice things to say or think about a large group of people, I tend to go with c) - which, as a theme, admittedly doesn't fan the flames. *But also - half-ish of college graduates and people making >$250,000 voted for him, these people rarely get accused of false consciousness **we don't know that Clinton would have addressed the economic needs of the poor in the rust belt, or that Trump won't.

Wonder if Clinton and Podesta are regretting their early 'Pied Piper' strategy of supporting the most conservative candidates possible (as leaked earlier in the campaign). Wonder if Clinton is regretting her long standing association with "second daughter" Huma Abedin.

That's good to hear. I thought it might be an issue for you given your arrogant, pompous tone b/w inability to make coherent point or correct yourself. Anyway, sounds like you've got it covered by being completely diffeeent IRL.

Do you find that people are generally unpleasant towards you?

no, it's not. >I thought there were more dodgy 'experts' trotted out on the Remain side > (probably because of the vested interests they tend to have) Define vested interest (V) amounts as follows: RSCE - remain so-called experts V LSCE - leave so-called experts V RE - remain experts V LE - leave experts V R - remain opinion holders in general V L - leave opinion holders in general V Are you saying: RSCE > LSCE RE > LE R > L ...or something else?

> probably because of the vested interests they tend to have who's 'they'?

Loz Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > A bakery owner by black people forced to create a cake with a white supremacist message? > A Jewish bakery forced to bake a cake bearing a 'vote Corbyn' message? Do you really think these two are examples of the same type of thing?

uncleglen Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Just goes to show that the people who benefit most > from the EU- cheap builders for their endless > extensions etc, cheap cleaners and childcare, > rocketing property values, practically guaranteed > higher rents and occupancies for landlords, will > shop at the more expensive shops for their smoked > salmon and caviar..... I think there are a lot of Co-ops in very non-caviar neighbourhoods.

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/10/20/iceland-britains-brexit-iest-supermarket/

last payment was a few years ago, i think...unless you mean the geopolitical rebalance as a whole.

Jeremy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Robert Poste's Child Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Jeremy, does that mean you work in banking or > some > > related part of financial services? VP = senior > > manager, but in reality no one senior speaks to > > you until you make Director. > > Yes but in a strictly peripheral role... it's > pretty rare anyone speaks to me at all during the > working day, and that's just the way I like it. I'm similar to you Jeremy, but the fuckers won't stop talking to me.

JohnL Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > It's pretty obvious to me that the rules on Brexit > are > > 1.Priority is controlling borders/movement of > people. > 2.Economy/free market/trade is best effort when > the above rule is not broken. > > I may be wrong :) I hope that this is just chatter to win votes, but they understand the real effect of going through with the tough talk.

Likewise - car crash, now not even enjoyable on that level.

Nothing crazy, I've walked out on account of thhinking I'd smack the interviewer within a wweek if I had to work together with them. The privilege of getting older.