Tony.London Suburbs

taper Wrote: TLS My role on threads where you are active is to weaken your arguments with facts, not buttress them. Best plumber I ever had was Albanian. taper, I'm glad you said that, and I'm sure that is true of many others here which is why I can't take too much notice of Stats, official or otherwise, kindly provided here. If they weaken by argument they are produced with almost indecent nae vulgar haste, If they strengthen my view they are conspicious by their absence and I long ago learned that they will only be produced if its the former. So on the basis that you, and many others, have no interest whatsoever in a fair playing field or making impartial, non-biased observations you will understand if I take any Stats etc provided with a pinch of salt me old mucker..:))

While we are, re-assurringly, dealing in "facts", no-one has, thus far, produced the facts to substantiate Huguenot's claims which prompted my 2 questions: 1/What evidence do you have that the Polish workers, in general, did a a better job than the Guys that they substituted from those same jobs? 2/Also what evidence do you have that Guys doing those same Plumbing jobs previously, "charged obnoxious rates for shoddy services " I would appreciate taper or Mark if you could furnish me with the facts to substantiate Hugo's claims. Thanks In Anticipation.

louisiana Wrote: The fact is, TLS, that every time you write, it is as if I were having to take an assault up the jacksie from a German. Really most uncomfortable. I'm sure you will understand. Well never having received a Teutonic thrust I'm not sure that I do understand Lu but, more importantly, should there be a Capital "T" in Teutonic, Darling ?

taper Wrote: Cornwall does well though. Probably more to with the quality of the hospital than anything else. Them pesky facts eh. Can't get this on my Computer at the moment taper so what is the sutuation regarding Cornwall ?

bignumber5 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Hardly any other patient in "A and E" that night > spoke English, she said and as a consequence the > delay to be seen, naturally, took much longer... > This MUST cause additional delays to all those > waiting. This would not be a problem in Sheen, > Truro or dare I say, East Dulwich... > > Our local A&E is King's, you do know that don't > you?! I'm sure the majority of patients speak The Queens English at Kings though BN5...

louisiana Wrote: TLS, I have held myself back since you started posting on this forum, but I can do so no longer. With commendable restraint Lulu....B) I would really appreciate it if you were to write English in the manner commonly accepted, rather than in a manner that might be proposed by Germans. (cf Fowler et al.) I'll do me best me Darling..

Mick Mac Wrote: I have had a female bashing before on this forum TLS, so I thought I hedge my bets. Always best to "hedge" Mick...(tu)

red devil Wrote: Tony, the story you regaled about the A&E fisticuffs could apply to any A&E department on a Fri/Sat night, regardless of the ethnicity of the perpetrators, some people will always use events like this to justify their already held prejudiced> views... I was referring to the ADDITIONAL delay RD, much of which was caused by nearly every other patient not speaking English. This MUST cause additional delays to all those waiting. This would not be a problem in Sheen, Truro or dare I say, East Dulwich...

Jeremy Wrote: I actually disagree that the polish tradesmen situation is a simple case of supply and demand. I would suggest most of them came here not because they couldn't get work in Poland, but because they could get paid a lot more in the UK - and have an > opportunity to run their own business to boot. Most of them probably returned home because of the weak pound. Good builders with strong reputations will rarely be short of work (in my opinion). No! No! No! Its because they had heard depressing reports of "foul mouthed obnoxious English plumbers" and wanted to demonstrate that not all Plumbers fall into that category. They were altruistic enough to trek across Europe, accept poor wages and work with commendable zest and vigour to disproove that commonly held view about Plumbers ( apart from ED's own Peter Bennison who they had heard did excellent work ). They only returned when the work dried up. It had NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the "weak pound" or the decrease in the differential between the wages that Poland were now paying for a Plumber and what they could earn in this Country. How cynical of you Jeremy, I'm disappointed...:-S

Michael, Michael, Michael!!!! Stop It !! You added a little "spice" with this thread and now you backtrack with your ( admittedly ralistic lol ) list of 11 points while "Women do the hard work, men get the glory.... " Followed swiftly by :- "After all if a man can do it, it can't be too difficult.".... Be like The Aussie Batsmen and go forward with the front foot and don't defend..B)

Keef Wrote: Is 18 minutes (time between your 1st and 4th consecutive, unanswered post) a "deafening silence"? Mick started his bbq thread last night, to no reply, and now it's absolutely flying! I saw that thread and laughed as I, wrongly, thought that it had no chance of taking off in "Right-On" East Dulwich where it can not be acknowledged that one Gender or one Group of people is superior or inferior to another Gender or Group of people about any individual thing. The EDF "Mantra" is that, generally, we are "all the same" about everything, which is lovely.. The truth is that both genders have their strengths and weaknesses, their intellectuals and idiots, with every category of person, in-between, but "differences" are rarely, acknowledged on here, for fear of causing offence or being "jumped-on" by The EDF Massif, innit...innit?

Soon be another Baby Boy Beeny-Weeny....

Keef Wrote: Talking to yourself is the first sign of madness Tony. Well when the pertinent questions start a deafening silence ensues around The EDF Keef....:))

matthew123 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- I always thought the Poms were technically Australian Isn't it the other way round Matt?

TillieTrotter Wrote: I must admit that the first one I did on my own, I struggled with the lighting of it but after a few tears of frustration and perseverance I'd say it was pretty good and am getting better by the chop!! Thats the spirit TT !!

As Brucie would say "Marvellous, Dear-- that answer was sooo much better than the answers you gave last week " It is, indeed, a "Good Game" my luvs...:))

Hugo so your answer to my 2 questions :-: 1/What evidence do you have that the Polish workers, in general, did a a better job than the Guys that they substituted from those same jobs? 2/Also what evidence do you have that Guys doing those same Plumbing jobs previously, "charged obnoxious rates for shoddy services " ....is based on a little personal "evidence" as follows ?? I renovated two derelict houses in ED across the period and received nothing but over-priced shoddy work from foul mouthed obnoxious English plumbers> (save for ED's own Peter Bennison who did excellent work but was never available). The contribution from the Polish guys on the other hand was exceptional and fairly priced. Your other comments did not relate to my 2 questions so I have only commented on that.

Extraordinary Double Standards on here. When people give anecdotal "evidence" repeatedly which can build a negative image of someone or a group of people it is egarded as wrong. Yet it seems perfectly acceptable and commonplace for anecdotal "evidence" to be used, positively, when supporting a claim i.r.o someone or certain groups of people. Are personal anecdots valid or not? To retain a semblance of credibility there has to be some consistency here.

Huguenot Wrote: I believe other studies should be done, notably identifying whether those that complain about immigration based on prejudice are also disproportionately represented amongst the sponging classes. I will tell you the people who complain about immigration mostly. The "people" who are adversely affected by the consequences in their Community, perceived or otherwise. I'm sure many Brits who live in "hideously White" East Dulwich will not complain one jot but conversely enjoy the "rich tapestrt" that seeing people from other Cultures brings to them. They may not know hardly any immigrants ( legal or otherwise).They may not, "personally", know many Asylum Seekers but they approove of the fact they are here as it does NOT impinge on their everyday existence. Now THIS is what happened to a friend of mine and his 80 year old Mum when she fell over 3 weeks ago and went to The London ( or City ? Hospital )in East London:- Hardly any other patient in "A and E" that night spoke English, she said and as a consequence the delay to be seen, naturally, took much longer, accordingly. Thats a fact of life even if some don't like the concept. Then a Somalian Gang and a Jamaican Gang ( my friends description ) fought a Mini-Riot in the Department. She took 6 hours to be seen as a result of all this. I'll think you will her view is, ever-so-slightly, dissimilar to yours but then she is on "the receiving end" and you and most others here, are not Hugo.

This thread seems to have existed since Time Immemorial or certainly since the year dot...

Jeremy Wrote: The Polish tradesmen had an excellent reputation.. "Reputation" is often gained, certainly in the Business World by "word-of-mouth". Yet david carnell, to name just one EDF luminary, does not accept "anecdotal" evidence per se. He has stated that repeatedly and yet thats EXACTLY how many people ( individually or collectively ) have prospered and expanded through "personal recommedation" i.e. they have a goodreputation in a certain area. So if david is correct and most other people are wrong then I'm sorry but we simply can NOT accept the merit a group of people because some in their group have an "excellent reputation"....

Mark Wrote: I had an English plumber on my property who was obnoxious, mouthy, shoddy and charged over the odds. I have also had a Polish builder who did some plumbing work (partly to mend the shoddy English job) who was brilliant; came in, did the work and left me feeling pleased with his work. ps I know it's only anecdotal and a sweeping generalisation of the English vs Polish plumbers debate but for some that counts as evidence because it's not theory. I've also had excellent British plasterers/decorators/electricians etc, well I think they were British because they spoke English and were white. Sorry Mark but thats something I have learned after my 55 years after joining this Site. Even if you ask 500 people about "someone" or "something" and they all, within reason, say the same thing, positive or negative, it is "meaningless" unless you have either: 1/ Met every single person alive in a particular "category" or 2/ Got Government Stats/Reports to back up ones "assumptions" even though these "assumptions" are based on everyone saying, virtually, the same thing... Meanwhile in the "Real" World outside of EDFSpace...

mockney piers Wrote: I once knew an English bloke who charged obnoxious rates for shoddy services. Well your "tongue-in-cheek" response is exactly what I'm alluding to. Surely Huguenot is not basing his opinion on "hearsay" or "conjecture" or "anecdotal". as, along with others, he refutes such "evidence". So I'll be fascinated to see what reports/stats he comes up with to support his sweeping statement. I know he will not be hypocrital and have double standards and accuse someone of basing their view on the above and do exactly the same thing himself!!

Not seen it yet but then I am only 55...:))

Huguenot Wrote: The disappearance of the Polish plumbers over the last year has demonstrated that the free movement of labour wasn't economic migration but supply and demand. Great for our country, bad news for local shirkers who charged obnoxious rates for shoddy services. The demand for Plumbers for The UK is, on average, no more or no less, than before the Polish Plumbers arrived. The demand was from The Employers in their Industry who could pay them much less per hour than the equivalent Guys who were doing those jobs before them. Now the wages have increased in Poland to achieve a state of nearer parity to the British wage there is no further incentive for the Polish Guys to remain here. What evidence do you have that the Polish workers, in general, did a a better job than the Guys that they substituted from those same jobs? Also what evidence do you have that Guys doing those same Plumbing jobs previously, "charged obnoxious rates for shoddy services " ??