Tony.London Suburbs

louisiana Wrote: I'd also point out that things can be more difficult for immigrants because (a) they don't have the kind of family network that other people can often call on and (b) they can face discrimination in the private sector. Firstly thanks for your comprehensive reply. I believe this family network problem only applies to new immigrants though, in the main. Discrimination in the private sector? A Subject for another day but I had a lengthy ( how unusual:)) debate on Blacknet 4 years ago when I argued that most private sector employers would stab their own Grandmother to maximise profits by employing the best possible staff so I don't feel that this discrimination is too widespread though, naturally, there will be examples of this. Tony, I also wonder whether you'd have preferred to have paid the costs of the education and health of immigrants when they were 0-18 (expensive, paid for by another country), and whether you've thought about who is going to pay for your pension. Surely that depends where the immigrants come from Louisiana? Surely the cost of education and health of Refugees from Iraq/Afghanistan/Bosnia/Somalia isn't that high is it? ( though I realise its all relative). I would expect that I've paid more than I'll take out Louisiana as I've paid in since 1971 and continue to do so.

Very good post, as usual, Keef. You make some very salient points and are able to do so without rancour. The Guys who mentioned that only 2% of people born o/s The UK are prioritised thus rubbishing the claims made about priority treatment conveniently omit to mention that most people from abroad joining our system do so, nowadays, on the basis that they will be housed by, as you say, a social services department who will find private accomodation for them. Your scenario? Of course it is wrong for anyone to abuse the system and many do ( many Council places are "Sub-let", many Women get places on the basis there is no Man around to support them and the children but the Man does live there but makes sure he is not around when "visitors" from The Council arrive. etc etc.. Many are on a higher priority level because of "imaginary" violence.... All abuses are wrong and The Council place should be forfeited and not be passed down the Generations. Many people living in The Suburbs now have done so on the back of profiting from the sale of their Council place. So I agree there have been many "White/British" abuses, as well.

People who have come and claimed asylum DO NOT get bumped to the top of a queue because they are asylum seekers. However, as Tony quite rightly says, they will present themselves as homeless, and for this reason they are prioritised, just as any white british person would be if they presented themselves as homeless. At last someone with common sense. How refreshing. All Asylum Seekers present themselves as "Homeless" or "nearly" all, anyway. Only "some" indigenous people can prove they are homeless and will then join them at the top of the Housing queue. So the majority of people already in the queue are pushed further down the queue as they are not homeless and priority cases but they are still very much in need ( like having 4 children in a 2 bedroom place, for example ). Simples.

Its not raining on Channel Five where Mark Nicholas has just reported from the sold-out venue.

Maurice Wrote: Well that clears it right up Tony, thank you. So you've not had experience with housing qeues since 1983? Well done on getting on the property ladder. You do live a most wonderfully exciting life, dear boy. Thanks Maurice. Unlike the marvellous "theoretists" on here who seem to know diddly squat about the way the "system" has operated over the last 40 years, I have worked for Southwark Council and Lewisham Council and that includes spells in the early 1990's in The Housing Departments of both Councils. When I took prospective Tenants to Deptford I had to refer to it as "North Lewisham" to make it appear more attractive.:)) Stories are legendary but Hackney Council were the undisputed Guv'nors of abusing The Housing System. At one point they had to suspend the whole Senior strata of the Housing Department as "friends" of The Officers were jumping the queue on a regular basis but I doubt of the "theoretists" on here know anything about that. Probably didn't feature in The Graniad ( Guardian ) though:)) p.s I've known many people who gave up on the system long ago through the 1980's/1990's Maurice. Exciting life? Its been varied ever since I worked for The Law Courts in The Strand in 1971 thats for sure.. p.s I am available for your next Dinner Party and have excellent Table Manners and social skills...:)

mockney piers Wrote: I'm not sure why you lot are engaging with a man.... Perhaps you could get off your high, "oh-so-superior" horse to tell me why: 1/ As Jeremy put it: "you do have to question why so many refugees strive to get into the UK - many of whom will travel the whole width of Europe to get here" ?? Why do these people by-pass so many Countries to get to Britain when most have no natural connection with this Nation, historically? 2/ If these Guys are "fleeing pesecution" from their original countries why is it, almost exclusively, single males we see trying to cross the border from France in nearly every case? This means they are leaving their Women and children to survive in these persecuted lands? What is your answer to these 2 questions please MP?

Maurice Wrote: Why have you lived in Council housing for 40 years Tony? You once said your family owned five or so houses in Walworth. What happened? Keep up Uncle Maurice.:) My Aunt's mother owned 5 Terraced House around Walworth ( I'm told ) but were given a pittance for them when ( I assume) they were Compulsorily Purchased to build the enchanting "Aylesbury Estate" at the time the largest Housing complex in Europe. My Family also lost their Council house but were given a Council Flat instead near East Lane Market ( we then transferred to another place overlooking East Lane itself ). I haven't been back there since, well, yesterday, in fact! From 1973 I trid to get on the list and so did many of my single friends ( mostly Male). Year-in, Year-Out came the same old Council mantra that no places were available as thousands upon thousands of people came into the system above us. Thats what I knew Maurice, however, we now have the farcical situation on EDF whereby a group of (in general) Middle-Class Guys who "mostly" were NOT around at the time and were NOT affected then or now in any adverse way are trying to pretend that this "priority" system did NOT occur because it has only occurred i.r.o. 2% of The Council accommodation stock over the last 5 years !!! Utterly ridiculous. I would love the average respondee on this thread to have a conversation with some of the Guys let down by the system over the last 40 years and tell them not to be so resentful at the system. I would they would leave with a proverbial "flea in their ear"..B) In 1983 I was given some money to put down a deposit on my own place next to Danson Park, Welling.

louisiana Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > 55, going on 5.5 loiuisiana what a pleasure it is to "engage" with you. Thus far, your only contribution is a petty, pathetic, small-minded insult to me. Now have you been adversely affected in any way by the lack of Social Housing over, say, the last 40 years or so?

bignumber5 Wrote: because 40 years ago the biggotted stance being championed by our 'burban colleague was, as he kindly reminds us, more commonplace. The logic of "it's ok for me to spout hateful nonsense because we all used to back in the day and it was ok then" seems to be the justification of choice, in the absence of anything more rational... The "stance" was commonplace because indigenous people were being, SYSTEMATICALLY placed further and further down the Housing queue while others came in above them from abroad and WERE given priority hence the "resentment". bignumber5 if in your work-place you were at the forefront for a position and you were continually overlooked as every time a similar position became available and was taken by someone from "outside" ( the equivalent here) and that process continued for decades would you not be resentful at the system? Anyone who had a vested in gaining a Southwark Council place back in the day would tell you, VERY clearly, that this practice of pushing people already on the list further down that list was commonplace but then I suspect, HEAVILY, that you and your kin were NOT affected by this. bignumber5 I asked you last night how old you are so that I can gage whether it makes sense that you called my comments "nonsense" . My comments i.r.o. Housing queues are based on my knowledge over the last 40 years, what are yours based on?

Mark Wrote: Tony.London Suburbs Wrote: There have been a lot changes for the better in 40 years, from human rights to medicines. Agreed. This includes many people on here be able to use the Internet and communicate on an equal level with people representing (what for want of better words ) ordinary working people. I suspect many on here only "communicate" with them when they are issuing instructions to them during the course of their work. Doubt if there are too many "Working-Mans Clubs" in East Dulwich, and I would be astonished if 99,9% of people on here attended them. But, in "theory" Guys you know much about them.:) Having a dislike for immigrants now because of the "harm" that other immigrants did 40 years ago is where our opinions will have to differ. Firstly any harm that immigrants may or may not have done 40 years ago would not impact on many on here who were not even around to suffer any "supposed" consequences. Secondly you assume, wrongly, that I dislike "immigrants" per se. You are wrong. What I do NOT like is the system which allows some "immifrants" having gaining priority over indigenous Brits over a 40 year period in a system where they had made no contributions, previously. Quite a subtle difference I would have thought.

bignumber5 Wrote: because 40 years ago the biggotted stance being championed by our 'burban colleague was, as he kindly reminds us, more commonplace. The logic of "it's ok for me to spout hateful nonsense because we all used to back in the day and it was ok then" seems to be the justification of choice, in the absence of anything more rational... "nonsense" how do YOU know it was "nonsense" in those days bignumber5 ? I assumed from reading many of your views that you could not have been around then to witness and perceive and hear what went on! How wrong was I !! I'm sorry but I never realised that you were one of our older posters. So to claim it was "nonsense" 40 years ago and in all the years since you must have been au fait with the situation so do not mind me asking but how old are you actually ? ( I'm 55 btw )

SteveT originally Wrote: So as there is no queue jumping then what do we call it when the newly arrived take precedent for housing over the long waiting local and national homeless population. That was the original question Mark and to me that makes the whole Subject up for Debate with no time limits set by SteveT.

LegalEagle-ish Wrote: This is about the misconception that newcomers get the council and housing association places over indiginous people, which has now been shown to be total racist, BNP shit! What it is to be young and naive. Bless. So it was a misconception in 1969/70 when this belief was freely held was it? What were YOUR views at that time Legal ? In 1971/2/3/4 we were still all under a misconception were we ? and in 1975/6/7/8/9 as well ? and in 1980/1/2/3/4/5 ?? and in 1986/7/8/9 ?? and thru' all the 1990's and all thru' this decade as well. I'd love you to tell that to many who spent years and years on the list in those decades. "You don't understand people its all a MISCONCEPTION!" "bnp shit!".. "er, who is/are the bnp Mabel " ?? remember these beliefs were long b4 the bnp even existed...in 1969/1979/1989 etc.. remember !!!

I would, heavily, suggest the "damage" and blatant unfairness to all British citizens born here ( irrespective of blah-blah) has been committed for 40 years now. The Barn has been burnt down, the door is permanently closed and the horses left long ago...

The more I think about this the more hilarious and surrealistic it seems. I was giving example after example of showing how one's culture can be diluted or disappear altogether if an area has an influx of people from a totally different culture and that, in general, "like are drawn to like" and yet the Guys who seemed most reluctant to acknowledge or accept this basic premise were saying EXACTLY the same thing on EDF two or so years ago...embarassing ? hypocritical ? shameful ? You choose...:-$

Of course many of these people arriving from abroad, literaly, could nt stay in existing Council properties in some areas as there are NONE available so have to stay in the Private Rental Sector and be funded by The British Taxpayer, accordingly.

Anyone would think that this situation has only started occurring in 2009 or 2005 or 2000 or 1990 or 1980 or 1970 !!!! This situation and "perception" has been a problem in Southwark and London long b4 many on here were even born ..lol Maybe everyone has been deceived over the last 40 or so years and there has hardly been a problem at all !!!

Of course the best idea is to go abroad and after a suitable duration turn up at Heathrow and ask for The Ealing Council Housing Offices as our newly-arrived Family are, by definition, "homeless". Ealing Council HAVE to do something and a friend told me 6 months ago that there will be no council property vacancies in Ealing for 10 years, he was told. How would YOU feel if YOU were in need?

LegalEagle-ish Wrote: But they are not getting the council houses, and that's the crap that Tony is spouting. If you want to go onto another argument about who lives off whom, we will be here all night with, royals, police cheifs and MPs etc. O.K. then they are getting priority as the latter are overwhelmingly housed in the private rental sector, and not in social housing. They are still being given priority over many people who have paid into our financial system and are in need themselves. Do you believe this is right Legal? ( Yes we all know "more" Housing is what IS required ) but as we stand now?

macroban Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Now, who's going to read it before commenting? Just speed read it ( lol).. Disagree with the assumptions regarding The Republic Of Congo and Eritrea. Only last week I spoke to a Young Girl from Eritrea who has got a Council place ( Southwark I think) and she has only been here 18 months and she was NOT fleeing anything but wanted to study "Travel and Tourism" at Southwark College. How did she do that "bob"?? No-one was murdered in her Family!

LegalEagle-ish Wrote: ony just incase you feel like actually educating yourself on what is actually happening in Somalia, try a few of the reports here. Then carry on spouting shit if you like. I've talked to a few Somalians who, now, have a large Community in Woolwich, thank you. Of course "some" cases are from people fleeing persecution and tyranny. What about all the other cases of Somalians here, Legal ( as you have chosen to mention "Somalians" ) ?? Do you honestly believe "most" Somalians here are fleeing persecution and why should the ones that aren't be given "priority" over all British people who are currently on the Housing WAiting List? Why should the Guys here who are NOT fleeing persecution be given priority?

The Housing System in Southwark?? I've known 7/8 Women/Girls who have cheated the "system" by claiming "violence" always a good score on the points system and in every case their story was fictitious. One Young Girl ( around 19/20 got a place on this basis and within 2 years her Twin Sister and older sister had come down from The Midlands, which they all had to "flee" because of domestic violence. In each case it was nonsense and they all have decent places within 1 mile of each other near where I used to live near Camberwell.

*Bob* Wrote: Boo-hoo.. where's my council house? I have paid-in! It's my right.. I've been on the waiting list FOREVER waiting for a handout, and then some git from Somalia who's family has been murdered (a lawyer or something useful, possibly) just pitches-up and gets MY handout.. oh WOE IS ME Yeah! "bob" all those single males who are currently in France waiting to get over here have all fled Afghanistan/Iraq/Somalia/Bosnia and 20 other Countries because people in EVERY one of their families has been murdered. I mean why else would they want to come to Britain? Why "Britain" incidently??...These Guys cross many Countries to attempt to reach Britain, a Nation where most have no natural allegiance, historically, at all. If these places are so desperate why have they left all their Women and Children behind to fend for themselves??

ontheedge Wrote: Tony from your previous posts Imake out you're about 55 so in 1973 you would have been about 19, surely not a priority for social housing I take it you would have been looking for a flat to yourself. That is exactly right on all accounts ontheedge. If you live long enough certain things go in cycles though. I was listening to a Radio Phone-In 2 months ago when a Lady with a strong Jamaican accent was complaining that "all these East Europeans" were preventing her own daughter from getting near the top for priority to Council properties. The irony was supreme as it was the mass immigration from The Caribbean that prevented many indigenous people gaining Council accommodation in The 1960's/1970's/1980's....what goes round, comes round springs to mind.

Old chestnut my hat. I was on The Southwark Waiting List from 1973 to 1983 and every time I, and many others that I knew, got anywhere near the top I, automatically, went further down the list when a new wave of immigranta, who almost by definition, are "homeless" went straight to the top. These people had paid nothing whatsoever in our financial system which, of course, is where the money came from to house those in need in the first place. So Guys much older than me had paid all their various Taxes into the "system" and when THEY wanted to benefit they could not get anywhere as priority was given to people coming from overseas who paid nothing in! Fair?? lol Problem is Steve that most reading this are liberal Middle-Class people who are NEVER going to be "inconvenienced" by this so could not give a rats ass, basically. Its easy to have noble, altruistic, magnaminous views when you and your kin are NOT affected in any way. Luckily I was given some money in 1983 to buy my own house otherwise I would still, probably, be on the Housing List now...::o