TheCat

Wow, you must have searched very hard for that quote...where I ponder the question it would be that bad if we had no deal (at a time when it looked like we were going that way)... In your searching, I guess you must missed the many times I said that I am not in favour of no deal...including this one, for example... "For the record, I'm stating unequivocally that no deal is NOT what I have EVER advocated. And should it come to pass, it will hold quite a lot of turmoil" So...just an apology for misrepresenting me as a 'no dealer' will be fine thanks.... As an aside on abuse/labelling....if you can comfortably refer to me as a 'Reasoned thinker my arse"...then I think 'Fit of pique' is probably a proportionate response:)

Nigello Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > But they were already in the building, sitting > outside. I think it is mischief making and really > not the smoking gun that people say/want it to be. > (One can believe this and also not be a supporter > of Boris. It is called being rational and > reasonable and it stops one from being reflexively > anti just because it is the default setting.) Come on Nigello, you've been around these parts long enough to know thats not how things work on the EDF:)

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > There's a difference between trying and > failing, > > and not even trying at all though isnt > there...? > > Not in practical terms, no: they both end up in > failure. Brexit is a project, not a religion. The comparisons with socialism are a false equivalence in my mind. Socialism has been tried...numerous times, and has failed. Brexit has never been tried...so if there's no commensurate commitment and delivery to at least the theory that people like Frost espouse...then we genuinely have no evidence that it wouldn't work do we...?

diable rouge Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Exactly Seph, and not forgetting we're now on our > 4th Brexit minister. It was all very predictable, > we literally have a Vote Leave Gov. > > ...its Brexit's fault, its not how sh!t this > government is.... > > Although IMO any form of Brexit was worse for the > country than remaining, there were forms of Brexit > that could've been better than what we've ended up > with, regardless of a Gov's incompetence. > > But no, that wasn't pure enough for No Dealers > like Cat, who then have the gall to now just blame > the Gov. > It's a common theme, it's never their fault..and > never will be. > > The reality is, it's a shit Brexit allied with a > shit Gov... You've said a few times recently in fits of pique that I am a 'no dealer'....I don't know where you've got that from. That was never my position. If you're going to insist on abusing me and my positions, then at least base it on things you haven't fabricated please.

The labour opposition is also sh-t....is that interwoven with the fact they they supported remain for years?...or are they just a sh-t opposition? In anycase....the reason why they are the government is a separate issue, and doesn't really ameliorate their level of incompetence.

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Is this one of these things where whoever the next > Prime Minister is the Brexiteers will say "ahh, > but they didn't do what was necessary, so it > wasn't Brexit that failed, it was the PM"? Like a > "no true Scotsman/proper socialism has never been > implemented anywhere so you can't say socialism > failed" kind of argument? There's a difference between trying and failing, and not even trying at all though isnt there...? All the critics of BJ and his government on here seem fine to lambast them for an inability to manage anything and everything, and cite their lack of positive progress in almost any area of policy...oh!..but not when its comes to Brexit, when its comes to that, its Brexit's fault, its not how sh!t this government is.... Fair enough if you think brexit is doomed to fail regardless...but to pretend that a proper attempt at progress isnt being impeded by a govrenment who's sh!t at imploementing any plan/agenda in any policy area is probably being a little willfully obtuse...

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > I guess these > > oddballs and myself are people who see > opportunity > > in some of those areas for regulatory > divergence, > > to reshape a national economy (which will > > obviously take time) > > Have any of those > opportunities for regulatory divergence been > realised yet? Nope. Not really. That's sort of my whole point about the govt. Not enough is proactively being done by government. At best, the pace of any legislative progress appears glacial, and any regulatory change then takes time for its effects to be fully felt even once change is implemeted (this is true of almost any systemic regulatory change, and is not brexit specific) How long does it take to reshape large sections of the economy? How long is a peice of string? I've said on here many times, judge the results after 10 years, but even with that said, economies are constantly evolving, so brexit impact will be a process on a continuum, not an A to B commute. In anycase...anyone (leave or remain) who ever expected any meaningful positive results after 11 months was always kidding themselves. I've covered this ground many times previously on here, and while you might not personally have seen me address your questions more extensively, the regular 'hit squad' on this thread are about to descend and mock the idea of long term economic change ("You say 10 years, why not make it 100?!!...snicker, snicker, sneer, sneer")....because if change is not immediate and obvious to some people, then apparently it's "objectively wrong' to contemplate that change may occur....

rahrahrah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Just to wind up TheCat a bit more- I saw a tweet > pointing out that ?the oven ready deal has just > been defrosted? That doesn't wind me up all:)....that is actually quite amusing. You've mistaken which poster actually takes themselves a little too seriously...:)

It's pointless even having a discussion with someone who clearly wilfully ignores the real meanings of the words 'objective', 'partisan' or 'true'....but uses them as window dressing to support blinkered, facile commentary for which the only purpose appears to be a vehicle to proclaim 'Ha..the other side was wrong'.... I, in no way, have engaged with you over the years to try to get you to change your mind or prove remain 'wrong'. I haven't been trying to 'win an argument'...but perhaps just to engender some appreciation that there might be an alternative perspective which has some shred of validity..even one you stridently disagree with. But after all this time, that clearly remains (no pun intended) a step too far for you. So, I'm apparently a member of a 'vanishingly small collection of oddballs'? I guess these oddballs and myself are people who see opportunity in some of those areas for regulatory divergence, to reshape a national economy (which will obviously take time) as mentioned in the CBI speech you find so awful? As an aside, I don't really know what you mean by a 'supply-side' brexit, but given the sophistication of some of your previous economic arguments, I'll do you a favour and won't dig too deep. In anycase, I would flag to you and your ?sneering remainer? pals, that's it's worth remembering that the Brexit campaign was backed by former party leaders, former foreign secretaries and chancellors of the exchequer. It was backed by historians, economists and political theorists. It was backed by former chiefs of the general staff and heads of the security services. It was backed by heads of global businesses, some of the UK's leading entrepreneurs, heads of charities, and some of the largest fund managers. Name a field of endeavour and you'll find Brexit supporters. Obviously the Remain camp can field a similarly impressive list of supporters, I wouldn't deny that for an instant. And equally I would never be so blinkered as to merely dismiss them as ignorant europhiles. I'd argue that proponents of brexit warrant similar respect, even if you stridently disagree with their view on this issue. You have repeatedly made clear that you don't believe they are deserving of anything more than your derisory mockery. Well.....I'd really love to know what overwhelming credentials you have? what your towering achievements are, that you can look down your nose at all these people and dismiss their considered judgement out of hand? Not even worthy of an 'agree to disagree' concession, as you've mentioned many time before.....? Objective? I really don't think you know the meaning of the word

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Also, anyone reading this thread still, will be > fairly across the kinds of twitter trade/political > commentators posting regularly on the subject > > Chances of anyone passing off someone else?s tweet > as their own are nil > In which case, why bother cutting and pasting them repeatedly?

Surley if people want to read partisan, 'witty' tweets about brexit, they'll log into twitter... There's really no need to constantly cut and paste them here (particularly with no added commentary of your own)

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > That cbi speech is just awful isn?t it? > > Pie in the sky libertarian daydreaming. Just as > awful as the worst corbyn wet dream > > But even if you think it?s the bees knees, it?s > hard to argue it?s what the ?never voted before, > voted labour all my life but voted to get Brexit > done and believe Johnson?s levelling up ? voters > in Rotherham are four-square behind Well...obviously a very fundamental misalignment of respective perspectives... As another aside, agreat example of those pithy one liners and mocking dismissal that passes for debate around these parts...

j.a. Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ?If I'm right (that frost is hitting a brick wall > at cabinet) then this is just another area where > this government is just lurching around with no > clear objective or directives from the top...and > an example of why I have been concerned with such > a sh-te government implementing brexit...not > necessarily with brexit as a concept itself...? > > And herein lies one the core reasons why, in the > end, I couldn?t vote Leave. > > No one - nobody at all - had any idea how to > *actually implement it*. As has been mentioned ad > neaseum, there is no single, coherent version of > Brexit which commands majority support across the > Leave vote. As such any agreement with the EU will > piss off someone, possibly many people. > > This is the unfortunate, inevitable, inescapable > result of voting Leave without a clearly > understood and agreed view on the matter. That's an absolutley fair position, and a reasonable crIticsm of a vote to leave. For my own part, I had (and still) hoped that a reasonable (not even spectacular) government would be alive to the various opportunities/potential, and progressively chart an appropriate course (just as they would have done had we remained..albeit with less relative uncertainty). This position has been mocked on here, but while others might not choose that approach themselves, I don't think it's wildly unreasonable to rely on a government to navigate complicated economic and legislative terrain in the nation's best interest...it's sort of what people expect governments to do. Unfort, we have probably one of the more useless governments in living memory. > > Them of course there is the small matter of > electing such a lying, conniving, self-serving > charlatan as Johnson to enact it, a man so > divorced from any understanding of leadership and > honesty as to put their nation on a crash course > with disaster when something so important (to put > it mildly) as Brexit is at stake. > Don't disagree with this, and never have. > I still believe that the mistakes were made in the > early days of Brexit, such that they could not > later be corrected, but even so this is now > becoming an utter shit show. To be clear, I > personally take no pleasure in this, I would?ve > preferred to eat humble pie and seen the Leave > camp be able to make good on everything they > promised. But?well, they?re still arguing with > themselves. Def mistakes made, and feet being dragged. I don't think anything is as yet 'unfixable'. But it can't be fixed with Boris in charge, he just doesn't have it in him. And I think frost has clearly realised this...no matter your opinion of frost and his views, he's no political fool...and the timing of his resignation (and it's 'leaking') is clearly designed to damage Boris's last remaining area of support from his faithful (I.e. his brexit credentials). I think the resignation is a clear message to MP's to get their letters into the 1922 committee... As an aside, nice to see a point made on this thread that doesn't rely on pithy one liners, excessive hyperbole or mocking dismissal/derision of others.

In all seriousness, the resignation of Frost genuinely concerns me with respect to the potential for the opportunities presented by brexit (as I see them) to be seized upon. And it now means the departure of BJ become more of an urgent necessity in my book... While the headlines are that he quit becuase of covid plans, and some might think that hes BJ's scapegoat for NI issues....I tend to think that the key reason is that he has not been able to accelerate progress on a legislative agenda that actually has the potential to create an environment in which Brexit can be/will be successful. And if I am right about that, then that is indeed a concern for everyone.... Frost gave what I thought was a great speech to the CBI a month or so ago...(I'd encourage anyone to find the entire transcript) and the except below suggests his personal alignment with what I think the government's approach should be. But, reading between the lines, I also sense frustration at the lack of progress under BJ (Something not limited to brexit related policy of course).... If I'm right (that frost is hitting a brick wall at cabinet) then this is just another area where this government is just lurching around with no clear objective or directives from the top...and an example of why I have been concerned with such a sh-te government implementing brexit...not necessarily with brexit as a concept itself... Frost speech excerpt.... "My job is to drive change within government, to push policy in the right direction and to overcome the forces of entropy, of laziness, of vested interest. What Brexit means for the future is dependent on whether we can seize these opportunities. Whether we can liberalise, free up, create competition on our own market, create the conditions for innovation and productivity growth. We can?t carry on as we were before and if after Brexit all we do is import the European social model we will not succeed. We have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the European Union from Britain with Brexit, only to import that European model after all this time. So we need to reform fast, and those reforms are going to involve doing things differently from the EU. If we stick to EU models, but behind our own tariff wall and with a smaller market, we obviously won?t succeed. That is why I talk so often about divergence ? not for the sake of it, but because it is a national necessity. This project has already begun ? though I would be the first to admit there is a lot more to do. We are liberalising the growth areas of the future to open them up to greater innovation ? in data reform, gene editing, transport, medical licensing and devices, Artificial Intelligence, and more We are making changes to the nuts and bolts of many of the core frameworks underpinning the economy to make them less bureaucratic and more dynamic than the EU regimes we have now left ? state aid and procurement being prime examples. We are phasing in our new domestic agriculture regime, while our immigration system has been reformed to give us much greater control over who comes into the UK and facilitate the shift to a high-wage, high-skill economy."

North Shropshire....the beginning of the end? The middle of the end? Or the end of the end? Surely this, combined with a greater number of rebels in key votes than his parliamentary majority means it's closer to the end for BJ than it was yesterday..

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > An example of why we are linked to EU trade in > ways we aren't quite so much with other side of > the world > > Only now we have no say > > Of course, in Brexitland, we can trust UK govt to > come up with an even better plan for these > employees > > https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/dec/09/g > ig-economy-workers-to-get-employee-rights-under-eu > -proposals What point are you actually trying to make? The EU is intoducing legislation to make Gig workers recieve employment benfits and be recognised as employees...what has that got to do with 'Eu Trade', or with 'having no say'...no say in what exactly? The only point of relevance in the article I can see as it relates to the UK, is that there may be additional pressure on the UK from various lobby groups to adopt similar measures (depsite a UK court declaring Uber workers can be recognised as empoyees 5 years ago)...but doesnt seem to have much to do with your comments to me.

Slowly, but surely, he seems to be running out of freinds.....at what point we reach the 'inflection point' on borader Tory support for him as leader, I dont know...but thats clearly the direction of travel.... From the DT.... By Christopher 'Chopper' Hope, CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT Afternoon, How many ministers will quit over Boris Johnson's new Covid-19 restrictions? It is a question now being openly asked by Conservative MPs amid anger at the latest restrictions to tackle the omicron variant. I have it on good authority that two Conservative MPs openly discussed sending letters of no confidence in Johnson to 1922 Committee chairman Sir Graham Brady earlier this week. And this morning, ConservativeHome, the website widely read by the Party's MPs and grassroots supporters, raised the prospect of a no-confidence vote in the Tory leader. Tory MPs cannot understand why the Prime Minister felt he had to bring in new rules on face masks, working from home and Covid passports, despite no evidence yet that English hospitals are being overwhelmed by the new omicron variant. The Department of Health and Social Care will publish more information this afternoon about how the new restrictions will work. Already, Number 10 is trying to mollify backbench Tories by promising a review of the plans early next month, while a "sunset" of the powers will happen at the end of January. But plenty of Conservative MPs are in open revolt. William Wragg, the chairman of the Public Administration and Constitutional Affairs Committee, blew the lid off the heated rows in the Commons tea room. He tweeted just after midnight last night at Culture Secretary Nadine Dorries: "Ah, the haranguing you gave me in the tearoom the other day, it all makes sense now, you were rehearsing your lines for Cabinet", followed by a hand clap symbol. The fury was palpable in the Commons last night. Wragg himself yelled "resign" at Health Secretary Sajid Javid as he was unveiling the restrictions. Other MPs spoke out. "I cannot vote for restrictions 'just in case' at a time when hospitalisations and deaths are falling," Ben Bradley, the MP for Mansfield, wrote on Twitter. "I don't believe the evidence supports Plan B and I will not vote for it." Red Wall MP Dehenna Davison said today: "I have long opposed vaccine passports, and so will vote against their introduction next week." And Party veteran Peter Bone said on Wednesday night that Johnson must lose his job if a wider vaccine passport scheme was to be introduced. Tory MP Greg Smith forecast a big rebellion on the Institute for Economic Affairs' Live with Littlewood YouTube programme when the plans are voted on by MPs next week (even though it will be futile because of probable Labour support for the restrictions). Smith said: "There will be a lot of Conservative backbenchers in the 'no' lobby and it would not surprise me if we started to see some of the payroll peeling off particularly on the vaccine passports." Smith - who was speaking just as the PM's press conference was getting underway last night - raised the prospect that this could lead to mass resignations among the ranks of junior ministers and Parliamentary aides. He said: "There have been a lot of very strong speeches, very strong questions from people who have PPS roles and who have junior minister roles around the vaccine passport issue." The Prime Minister's authority is now seriously fraying with Javid telling BBC breakfast television this morning that he would not support mandatory vaccines and suggesting the PM was talking about health workers when he raised them. The relationship between Johnson and his MPs was always transactional; they backed him as long as he won them elections. And I wonder whether something more significant shifted last night; it felt like a moment when the Conservative party may have started to fall out of love with Boris Johnson. Cheerio! Chopper

JohnL Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > He hates sacking people > > But I think he'll have to sack a few more soon. I thinks it's more that he hates making decisions. Much better to bluster and prevaricate than risk being held responsible for the consequences of an actual decision...

I think I'll call it a night, as there's really not much rational in the rant above to actually respond to.

I'm not sure if your bizarre 'slicing you own arm' analysis is quite enough to refute basic, almost universally accepted economic theory - that you would find in pretty much any Economis 101 textbook. But keep on fighting the good fight... PS: I particularly like the line mocking my 'self-congratulation'...this coming from Mr 'I've been warning about X, Y and Z for years'....

A very poorly worded and constructed article to be sure... But if you want you a genuine Brexit angle..here it is...this is a great example of an industry being forced to modernise/invest in technology to improve productivity, becuase there is no longer access to limitless cheap labour to drive the old gritters. This is a real world example of the basic economic principles which I've mentioned on here before (I.e. moving towards a higher productivity economy drives economic growth), which some posters have dismissed as 'all fine in theory, but not how the real world works'.....guess again guys..... Two final points to pre-empt expected responses: 1) this increase in productivity is NOT a feature of the OBR forecasts for a long term GDP 4 percent below what they believe it would be in a remain scenario. So this entire thematic is potential upside to these long range forecasts, and the absence of this (among other things) is one reason why many economists question the OBR's methodology. 2) You may say that nothing was stopping these industries from doing this before, and it is true that there was no EU regulation stopping investment. But what did stop them was rationale economics/capitalism...why invest in new technology when you can hire a low paid HGV driver to drive the old gritter you already own...?

It doesnt take much to replace a blown bulb

Perhaps I've misinterpreted Seabag's mocking OP then. As looks to me like that is exactly what he has done.

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Yeah I've Googled for like half an hour now, I > reckon that's a good substitute for having advice > from experts that actually know what they're on > about Surely one can make their own decision incorporating information from experts.... The point being! if guidance is vague, contradictory or nonsensical....then use the brain god gave you rather than throw ones hand in the air and lament that you haven't been told exactly how to act in every situation...

or...you could be a big boy and make your own decision.....