TheCat

diable rouge Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The 1500+ lorry jam shows the folly of 'taking > back control of our borders'. > Borders are shared, and Brexiters waving their > magic sovereignty wand doesn't make a blind bit of > difference... We haven't left yet.

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > How...how did I change the subject? My apols. Perhaps I let my frustrations with other posters get the better of me with a hasty response. And I read you mention of 'jobs, prices etc' as a change of subject from the vaccine point being discussed. In anycase, I agreed with you on its relative importance, so on this occasion we can 'agree to agree':)

Its now clear to me that you are by far the worst contributor on this thread. You assume what you have no idea of knowing ("You quite frankly don't care about any of that because you have never cared"...I mean honestly, the arrogance required to say that about someone that you know nothing about is quite astounding). You are extremely prejudiced against people making comments you don't agree with. You don't reply when the direction of an argument goes against you, or when a reasonable point it made that goes against your narrative, you do what you've just done now, and bring up a thousand other issues that need to be addressed to avoid making eleven the smallest concessions. You demand details from everyone else, but never supply your own (tell me blah blah, what sector do you work in? Please detail me your personal circumstances to I can judge whether I deem you worthy of commenting on these issues?, What is your forecast for GDP post brexit? I know you didn't vote leave, but no doubt you've done detailed and extensive research to have absolute certainty that there is 'not one' benefit to such a multifaceted transition). You constantly label others as deflectors - but I'll hand it to you, you actually are the master at it...wether it be through avoidance or whataboutery. Congrats and good luck.

Fine. Agreed. Thanks Sephiroth, but I can assure you that if I (or any other leaver on this forum) changed the subject on here as you have just done it would be labelled as 'whataboutery' or 'deflection' pretty quickly, and dismissed. I won't do that though, as I think you're right. In anycase, it nice to have some acknowledgement though of 'at least one tangible benefit':)

Here's a real world detail for you Blah Blah....as I've said before....The legal mechanism exists for any EU country to approve the vaccine ahead of the EU approval. But political pressure from the EU means that no EU nation has done so....and the fact that we are leaving transition in 2 weeks mean we're not subject to that pressure, or don't care about it. Its the total dismissal (and general mocking from some) of the nuance of these sort of real world differences (by most remain commentators on this thread when I mentioned it 2 weeks ago), which provides the perfect example of why I can't be bothered providing further details....becuase the truth is that many remainers on here really don't want to consider any opposing arguments on their merits....

Blah Blah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > diable rouge Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > It's certainly been interesting watching the > > so-called libertarian > > right/free-speechers/free-thinkers etc, squirm > and > > convolute their way around willingly removing > this > > freedom from their fellow citizens, making it > more > > difficult to travel, work, study, retire in the > > EU. It's true that logistically it will still > be > > possible i.e. travel, but the real stumbling > block > > will be financial, namely having to take out > > costly private health insurance to cover the > loss > > of reciprocal access to health services, > > especially for those who want to work/live in > the > > EU. Freedom of movement helped democratize > travel > > and the opportunity to work/live etc. To borrow > a > > phrase, it was for the many not the few... > > UK students who want to study in the EU will now > face three times the level of student fees they > had to pay as an EU member, so no, the cost isn't > just health insurance etc. There will be genuine > barriers to a range of things because of sudden > increase in cost. And still, not a single leave > voter has given a single tangible benefit that > will be brought to their life by leaving the EU. > not one. I don't know about that. Watching you twist yourself into knots, while making this same ridiculous, myopic claim over and over again is tangibly changing my life I can assure you.

KidKruger Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Well if we're going to go down the route of what > Brexit impact is ACTUALLY and UNDENIABLY > catastrophic, there's probably nothing to complain > about right ? > I mean, interstate's rates, food shortages/delays, > lorries backing-up at ports, inflation, limited > travel freedom, none of it kills us, right ? > Therefore Brexit is harmless. > Right ?! > > Next level BS. Come on KK...it's 'next level BS' to bring up a specific point about brexit which isn't quite as bad as some of the more exaggerated commentary suggests? I get overall most people on here disagree with the whole thing, but surely not every comment needs to discuss every aspect of the issue? There's 30 pages of comments on this thread swinging between specific minuatae and big picture and back again....

Blah Blah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > leave voters just took away the > dreams of generations of people who might want to > live, work or study in any one of 27 other > nations, I just want to pick up on this point....UK citizens dreams of one day moving to live in an EU nation are now crushed? This does get trotted out a lot as a major downside of Brexit...and it strikes me as amore of a minor annoyance in the grand scheme of things, rather than a major criticism. Couple of points....there's around 1m UK nationals living in the EU excluding Ireland (and around half of that number are retirees)...so it hardly seems like there are 'generations' of UK nationals who's dreams are being crushed...these are small numbers in the context of a 67m population. Secondly, if it really is someone's 'dream' to go live, work or study in another country, then yes (for the EU countries specifically) it wont be logistically quite as easy as previously, but if people are giving up on their dreams just because they cant be bothered to go through a more complicated visa/immigration process (acknowledging that for retirees it will be much harder given stage of life), then it couldn't have been much of a deep held 'dream' in the first place... As an aside, there are more UK nationals living in Australia (~1.3m) than in the entire EU.... BRITS ABROAD: THE TOP COUNTRIES Country name Resident Britons Australia 1,300,000 Spain 761,000 United States 678,000 Canada 603,000 Ireland 291,000 New Zealand 215,000 South Africa 212,000 France 200,000

Wow...bet you wish you were debating me now......

Anyone feel like driving out to Surrey this weekend for an outdoor pub lunch?:)

Guys...I get you feel passionately about this issue. But surely you can see that statements like.... "can't cite a single tangible benefit to them from it" and "No-one of any standing agrees with you" Are perfect examples of the lack of objectivity and hyperbole that pervades this thread. There are many examples of Brexit benefits, and also many individuals 'of standing' who voted to Leave. And by blindly suggesting there isn't, it just diminishes the credibility of your other arguments which are often very reasonable. When your criteria for someone of 'standing' is that they have to first have to disagree with Brexit, or your criteria for a 'tangible benefit' is something you already agree with....then its not really an objective discussion is it? Sure there a cranks and bad reasons for Brexit, doesn't mean there aren't also reasonable commentators and decent reasons, but in my view unfort there's no argument, no matter how reasonable, that will sway you in anyway to consider or respect ANY people on the leave side. Which is indeed a shame in such a divided nation. Please dont demand that I now list these benefits, or name these individuals...as its a totally pointless exercise (and has been done many times before of the past 4.5 years)...and as I've said before on these pages, you dont really WANT these examples to perhaps gain a different perspective, you only want to hear them so that you can tear them down and feel safe and smug in your echo chamber once again....

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Once again > > It isn?t claims from people like you versus > remainers like us > > It?s the governments own analysis. It?s business > of all shades and shapes. > > They are all saying what is going to happen. > > So don?t project your insecurities onto people > like me It's admirable how you place so much faith in this government. I'm confused though....as you often seem to rubbish nearly everything they say. I guess it's funny how you only love to quote 'government analyst's when agrees with your pre-existing view.....

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > That?s a lot of words for > > ?This doesn?t sound good. We won?t be living in > mud huts. But it sounds bad? > > So go back to 2016. Put that on a referendum and > win that > > THEN you have a mandate > > But this? This is some bullshit > > Forget the goddamn U.K. Ireland alone is reason > enough to not proceed. No mud huts involved there > either but actual peace after decades. This whole > thing is such bogus, Willy waving nonsense That's a lot of words for, 'maybe I've exaggerated a bit on occasion'.....:)

Heaven forbid of course, but let me know when the first bomb goes off in Belfast becuase of brexit....

As one of the few 'resident leavers' on these arguably very one sided pages (you want me on that wall (thread), you need me on that wall (thread))....I am looking forward to my collection of copy and pasted hyperbolic quotes taken from these pages, coming back in 12 months, with a side-dish of 'was it really that bad'? For the record, I'm stating unequivocally that no deal is NOT what I have EVER advocated. And should it come to pass, it will hold quite a lot of turmoil (I'm not questioning that). But some of the OTT statements on these pages are really quite preposterous. We've just come through 2020 (admittedly in bad shape) where most of the economy has been shut for most of the year. Yeah that's bad, and may get worse....but are we 'Argentina'? Or an 'international pariah'?...or are we really 'run by hedge fund managers...avoiding tax in offshore accounts' How are these comments any better than the ridiculous leavers who claim the country is being 'overrun by immigrants'? Many of you would like to think you're better than those types of leavers.....so maybe try a little harder to be so. That said, to be fair, these are subjective terms, and only the fullness of time (which is not 3 weeks into January) will give us some of an idea. The level of conviction from many of you with regards to something which is clearly highly uncertain is either highly impressive or foolish delusion, depending on one's view. Let's make a deal? None of us really know what the f@ck the next 12 months holds. So stop pretending you do. We all have a view, but whether it's yours or mine, they both sure share a pretty low level of confidence. Constantly asking for detailed answers on future predictions from people who voted leave is just childish and self-serving (can any remainers please tell me our exact GDP:per capita in 2 years from now if we chose not to leave the EU????.....yep...not possible...) If we're living in mud huts in 12 months, I'll concede it probably wasnt a price worth paying. But if life is just a little bit sh-ttier than it is now with no deal, but really not the zombie apocolyse...I hope at least one remainer on this forum will be big enough to admit they still dont like it, but 'it's not as bad as we thought it would be'..... I won't hold my breath though.

diable rouge Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Ok, fellow EDFers, time for a game of Deal or No > Deal. > Cat with his risk analyses can be the Banker. > I fully understand if no one wants to be Noel > Edmonds. > > Lots of talk of No Deal and gunboat diplomacy, but > worth remembering that just over a year ago we > were in an identical situation of a looming No > Deal when trying to get the WA over the line, and > then at the last minute Johnson caved in on a > customs border down the middle of the Irish Sea. > That was a BIG climb down but Johnson gambled that > politically he could sell it as 'getting Brexit > done', so politics matters to him. > > That's why I'm going to hedge that there will > still be a very last minute deal, because > politically a deal is better for Johnson than No > Deal. He knows that Labour will be split over the > vote for a deal, whereas they would vote > unanimously against No Deal. Despite some Labour > MPs voting against a deal or abstaining, there > should still be enough to counter any ERG vote > against the deal, so with these votes, which > importantly will include Starmer's, Labour will in > effect be seen to endorse the deal politically, > which the Tories would no doubt use against them > when things get messy. Whereas with a ND the buck > would stop entirely with Johnson and the Tories. > They would solely own any ensuing chaos/hardship. > > > Politically this matters. All through the Brexit > process the Tories have done what is in their own > best interest, not the country's. A deal will > still be really crap, but at least some of the > crap will have landed on Labour... Tend to agree with most of this DR. By the by, link below to an interesting (and slightly novel) perspective on the tory/labour dynamics of a no deal scenario....which reaches a different conclusion to your comments above in the end... https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/if-boris-doesn-t-blink-over-brexit-keir-starmer-becomes-unelectable

malumbu Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Hi Cat, did you think it would be plane sailing? > I expect most voting to leave didn't even consider > this, and many was on the Little England/Johnny > Foreigner is taking our jobs, filling our schools > and abusing our NHS. > > That's not to say that many who voted to stay > didn't put a lot of thought into it either, and > didn't consider the benefits, few as I expect they > are. No, def didn't expect plane sailing. I can't speak to what other leave voters were expecting, but I can't see how anyone would be naive enough to expect nothing but sunshine and rainbows while implementing a major, broad-based transition to a country. That said, I think (for a whole host of reasons) the UK government (under all 3 PMs we've had since the referendum) has made significantly tougher going of the process of leaving that it probably needed to be. I'm still not sure I really agree with your characterisation of most leave voters. All the major opinion polls post-referendum cited sovereignty as the number one reason people voted leave, far ahead of immigration. My opinion (just an opinion, no data to back this up), is that it's easier and more comforting for many remainers to consider the only reasons people voted leave was because they were lied to, or were idiots. There were of course people who voted leave who could be characterised this way, but whether that was 'most' of them, I'm not so sure. I've posted this before, but Pie's take on this never gets old in my book....

Blah Blah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > This is what typifies everything that is wrong > with a certain Brexit view. Those who think a hit > is fine, but won't say how long that can be > expected to be, and then go on about risk aversion > when the kinds of jobs at risk are not their job. > There are areas that rely heavily on UK exports > for local jobs. No deal will be an exercise in > self harm that will hurt those regions hardest. > There is no B plan to save any of them. The > country is run by hedge fund managers who believe > in the myth of trickle down economics while > avoiding tax in offshore accounts. If the economic fallout is quite as apocalyptic as many remainers seem to think it will be then every section of the economy and all jobs are at risk. In anycase, I am EU immigrant, and when voting leave, I obviously took the risk that I might be kicked out of the country.....is that level of personal risk enough for you? It's interesting that you rubbish the concept of being risk averse, but then in the same breath demand that you be given certainty about 'how long that be expected'. Such a transition is largely unprecedented, no one can know the exact impact. Most people who voted for brexit, voted on the "principle' of sovereignty. Voting on principle is a valid rationale in my book, and doesn't require a detailed multifactor economic model. But on balance one would expect that many leave voters felt that shorter term disruption was a risk worth taking to align with principles they placed value on. Seemingly, you (and most other remainers on here) disagree, and don't believe those risks are a price worth paying. That's a fair position to take, but hence why I think 'risk version' plays a role here.

missse22 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Thank you , as a mother I too would have concerns. > Thanks for the warning. I think any mum in their > right mind would appreciate your post xx How does this post change how you would act 'as a mother'? What does this 'warning' actually accomplish? all it does is vilify an elderly man.

Seabag Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > TheCat Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Blah blah....Your question is emblematic of > many > > remainer attitudes, in my view. A discomfort > with > > uncertainty. That's a fair position, but I > believe > > that many remainers are risk aversse and prefer > > the certainty of the status quo. > > > Tell me what you do to earn your crust? > > I don?t need to know exactly where you work, just > an indication of where you garner income? Why does what I do influence your view of my opinions? Judge my comments on their merits....or lack thereof if you think I'm talking rubbish. But whether I'm a pimp or a prime minister is totally irrelevant.

"For most, they placed their trust in people, political leaders, who lied to them" Well...'most' people are idiots. That is at least something we can probably agree on.

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ? Even the most ardent brexiteer would always > acknowledge that the disruption of the exit would > be negative. It's not exactly a suprise? > > Well now that just isn?t true is it. That may be > what brexiters have pivoted to. But certainly to > win a referendum that was very much not the > message was it? You know all of the examples from > all of the leaders as well as I do > > So don?t make stuff up. I know you know I?m right. > It bothers the living shite out of you. It?s an > itch you can never scratch. I know you have even > convinced yourself that isn?t true. But it is Haha.....it's not me who's making stuff up. I can't be bothered trawling through old comments on this forum. But I know I made comments 4 years ago talking about the drawbacks of the disruption when we exit being a price worth paying.

Seabag Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > If ?one? is a believer > > Ffs I know right. How dare anyone have a view that's different to yours. The hide......

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Still wanging on about ?potential? upsides. 4 > years later. Just to divert from the upcoming > shitshow > > For god sake man, have some self respect > > The whole thing is led by charlatans. Even if you > wanted to believe you can surely see the people > leading are just the worst. > > The only future is an indeterminate amount of > years of fumbling and denying reality before > rejoining because that is clearly the most > advantageous position to be in. > > You don?t have to die on this hill of all hills You're hilarious mate. The lack of objectivity in your comments is quite profound. I've said many times that the people leading us are terrible. That doesn't change the brexit rationale. Even the most ardent brexiteer would always acknowledge that the disruption of the exit would be negative. It's not exactly a suprise....but if you want to dress it up as such to make yourself feel better, then okay.....

Blah blah....Your question is emblematic of many remainer attitudes, in my view. A discomfort with uncertainty. That's a fair position, but I believe that many remainers are risk aversse and prefer the certainty of the status quo.