robbin

It was the uneducated reference (not yours) to "in trouble" that I was taking issue with. It is manifestly not the case that those companies are in trouble merely because of the activity of the circuit breaker.

Goodness me Azira!

Sorry - I was adding the figures (cut and pasted from my earlier post) to make it clearer. I never said the index has not dropped since the vote (it plainly has - the figures are out there for all to see). However, I disagree - it is highly relevant that the index rose drastically just before the vote - there was an awful lot of speculation and position taking in the 2 days pre-vote (and on the day itself). It was artificially high and there was profit taking. What is artificial is to ignore the fact that it was all pumped up and just refer to the drastic fall the day after in a vacuum - context and perspective is everything! Don't get me wrong - I'm not saying the index did not drop a lot in one day (although it recovered about half its drop on Thursday) - of course it did. I'm also not saying it won't fall again, or even that it won't fall into a longer term bear market. It is a very volatile market and will be for a time. Markets hate uncertainty, but at the same time some people profit from it (or will try to profit from it) and the trading that comes with uncertainty can itself lead to exaggerated falls and rises in the index with no real underlying trend (or at least that's my opinion - and I'm certainly not alone in that view). What I do think is wrong and the limited point I was trying to make is that some people choose to pick a day or two of downwards movement and start making wild and/or hysterical points by reference to them and holding them out as some sort of 'proof' of something which they are not.

rendelharris - you asked where the data comes from. It is published on Londonstockexchange.com Or many other sites. Google the relevant dates if you want to check. 7 days ago on Monday 20 June (i.e. before the vote) the FTSE 100 opened at 6021. This morning (Monday 27 June) it opened at 6049. 28 points higher than a week ago. Are those figures not correct? Given that you asked that surprising question you went on to make what at first blush is a good point, which is of course that the 250 index is a better guide because it is more heavily domestic. However, while your point is a fair one, the same caveats apply to the 250 as to the 100 index in relation to the weight you can place on the stock market as a true short term barometer of economic performance. In times of volatility any conclusions are rendered extremely shaky (at best) because of profit taking and setting up of positions, shorting of the market etc. The banks and investors are out there making money, day by day - they are not involved in some sort of voting of confidence in the long term performance of the economy and it would be exceedingly na?ve to think that they are (I know you were not saying that, but some others appear to believe that to be the case).

Oh, so the circuit breakers automatically suspending trading for 5 minutes means the company is "in trouble" does it Azira?! Your condescending comments are noted ( I see you've been keeping those up with others on other threads - so I won't take it personally - clearly that's just your style). However, you seem to have a very na?ve view of the 'markets'. Maybe that's a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. If you were to get involved in them on your own account, as well as in your job (whatever that is) then I reckon you would get to grip with the principles faster? I assume based on the timing of your posts (e.g. 3.32pm) that you are not at the sharp end of things in the markets.

John L said "The Economy is all about what Speculators think about the future. If things are crashing they think the future is not good." But this was exactly my point! The FTSE went up last week - it hasn't crashed! That's not to say it might not do so some time, of course it might, but my point is that some people are hysterically saying it HAS when it hasn't! This is not a matter of opinion - the FTSE index is published data! It's fine to say I think in future there might be problems. To say oh look the economy has tanked (meaning the FTSE) is not - because it hasn't.

Brilliant kford. I'm sure you are more intelligent/principled than those ignorant inbreds. Careful you don't get a stiff neck looking down on them from so high up!

Also, on that note, for example people whining on about how the economy has crashed is just errant nonsense. We are still EU members with full access to the single market. We have not even yet given notice of leaving so nothing has actually happened to the economy yet (good or bad). If any of you are referring to the FTSE market then I suggest you get a life and start looking at reality. 7 days ago (i.e. before the vote) the FTSE 100 opened at 6021. This morning it opened at 6049. 28 points higher than a week ago, so it was up on the week of the Brexit vote, not down. Yes it went down on Thursday as speculators cashed in (in fact I did ok on some short positions - in a very moderate way) and profits were taken from the FTSE's earlier inflated position, but really - they are markets - what do you think they are!! You can't look at one day's fall (actually, in this instance a few hours in one day) and start running around talking about the economy taking a hit! Well, you can, but if you do, don't expect your opinion to be taken seriously by anyone with more than a passing familiarity with the true facts, or economic principles.

JoeLeg Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > keano77 Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Blah Blah Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > And I thought lies around immigration that > may > > > have led to a mentally vulnerable man > murdering > > an > > > MP equally diplorable. > > > > Don't be silly blah blah. There is no causal > link > > here no matter how Remain tried to create one. > The > > man was unfortunately mentally unstable. > > Again, can you provide any links to anything to > back that up? Personally I was offended by this use of Jo Cox's death by David Cameron in his Twitter account (on the day the Leave vote was said by the polls to be ahead for the first time): David Cameron Verified account  ‏@David_Cameron Jo Cox's strong voice in the campaign to remain in the EU will be badly missed. Her final article, published today: https://www.facebook.com/StrongerInCampaign/posts/1196877127019276 ? Maybe unlike you guys I am particularly sensitive about politicians trying to weedle a bit of what they might perceive as an advantage out of someone's murder, but that struck me as extremely unfortunate and for me (rightly or wrongly) suggestive of someone who would stoop at nothing to try to win and save his own skin. And before you start ranting - I voted to remain. But I am far from unhappy with the result, despite all the hysterical nonsense and false facts and hyperbole being bandied about. I think long term we may well be better off. Time will tell I suppose. One thing is for sure, defeatist hysteria isn't going to help in any way at all.

Jeremy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > heartblock Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > drinking Cavalo Nero while poking around Mr. > HB's bloody vegetarian sausages > > Cavolo Nero is a type of cabbage. My favourite post of the entire Brexit debate thread. Genius! Speaks volumes too!

I think those in power can see that there is a divide - it hardly takes a genius or some bogus petition to tell us that! The only message the petition sends is that there's a lot of numpties out there who only 'like' democracy if it goes their way. More people voted leave than remain - people should suck it up and get on with it. I voted to remain, but I strongly object to the criticism by those that are just poor losers, of the choice of others and of their motives and levels of intelligence. Maybe some day you should drive out of your metropolitan bubble and see how things are out there with people beyond the M25 - they are not all stupid, or racist nutters you know.

Don't worry, unless you were carrying a couple of million proxies, your not voting made no difference to the result.

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No worries LM. I appreciate the explanation.

I thought this was just a tad condescending... "I get that you aren't familiar with all of this which of course is fine but its insane to simply dismiss it as speculation when these are bold face verifiable facts just because they don't dovetail with your world view. This is an important vote. Spend a few hours looking into what I've outlined and if you have any questions I'll try to answer them objectively" But I may just be being too thin skinned. Anyway, in all seriousness it's no big deal. You are entitled to your opinion and frankly I can see the merit in a lot of what you say.

I must say I have felt that the sort of 'debate' on this thread from Blah and LM in particular has often come across as being comprised of a fair smattering of condescending remarks and smug, sanctimonious digs at those who don't share their world view or accept their 'facts' (because apparently we are too dim to 'understand' them). But then if that what passes for 'debate' these days (or more likely just debate on the internet) I suppose that's just life and something to get used to. No big deal - it will all be over in a few hours. However, I think I'll avoid the forum for a couple of days, just in case there's an abundance of sanctimonious crowing about the inevitable Remain majority (even if it does demonstrate that close to every second person in the UK is in favour of leaving the EU at any cost - hardly a ringing endorsement of the Union).

"Tedious views" = those you don't happen to agree with. "Pompous" comments = condescendingly describing other people's views as "tedious".

Yes, grinding decline. I didn't say economic decline, although I think that is not too far off. The NHS is dysfunctional, overwhelmed and getting worse. There are not enough school places. House prices mean living in London/owning in London is well out of reach of most. Wages have been driven way down in some sectors. We are shut out from trading with massive economies in any proper way. We are shut out from employing expert migrants in certain areas because they are not from the EU. I'm not saying I'm not in favour of migration and different cultures - I am - I think they are good and differences are good - it is all a question of degree and whether there is unfettered migration or migration that can be controlled in order to avoid overcrowding of public services etc. Generally I see decline in the quality of life, yes.

I should have added: the 'good reason' for them not doing so is that it would damage them as well as us! Nobody sensible thinks tariffs are a good idea and I'm sure they don't either (after all, they are in the EU free trade organisation!). So why would they cut off their noses to spite their faces?

"Of course you can choose to believe they are bluffing but I believe they mean what they have explicitly said as they have good reason for doing so." I genuinely do think they are bluffing. Of course it is in their interests to scare us into voting to remain - they want us to remain. If their politicians said don't worry we will be cooperative in our mutual interests (which is what the German CBI type people are saying) they would be (rightly) worried we would feel confident that it is safe to vote to leave. That would be madness - so yes, I do genuinely think it is an obvious bluff and negotiating position. They would be stupid to say otherwise and they are certainly not stupid.

In any event its all a bit academic - we will never know the truth as there's no real chance of a leave majority vote, I don't think. Just more years of grinding decline while unelected bureaucrats decide our future and get fatter. Then at some point the exposure of the fault-lines in the Euro economic system leading to right wing nutters getting more power (or god forbid control of some member states). Not all will lose out - the poor EU members will obviously get a lot better off as our contributions find their way to them, but the richer states will inevitably be in decline (it's simple arithmetic after all - there's a pot we all pay into and take out of, in varying amounts - there's no voodoo magic that makes the pot grow so we can all take out more than goes in). I will never be less happy to be proved right, but that's my prediction. It will take a few years, maybe two or three decades, but unless there's major EU reform that seems inevitable to me. Sounds like Cameron's project fear in reverse, but that's my honest view.

The idea that trade tariffs will be imposed immediately (because it is 'the law')is a nonsense. First of all the minimum period in law of any withdrawal after it is triggered by notice under Art 50 of the Lisbon Treaty is 2 years during which time there are mandatory negotiations between the EU and the party leaving. During that time both parties are very likely to see that protectionism is a nonsense and will only hurt both the EU and UK, so deals will be done and extensions of time agreed in the parties' mutual interests. Before anyone says that's nonsense, here's the reality of what the real influencers in Germany think: From the BBC about 4 hours ago: "A German industry boss has said it would be "very, very foolish" if the EU imposes trade barriers on the UK in the event it votes to leave the EU. Markus Kerber, the head of the influential BDI which represents German industry, said his organisation would make the case against such measures. He said any introduction of tariffs would be "regression to times we thought we'd left behind in the 1970s". The UK's referendum on whether to leave the EU will be held on Thursday. "Imposing trade barriers, imposing protectionist measures between our two countries - or between the two political centres, the European Union on the one hand and the UK on the other - would be a very, very foolish thing in the 21st Century," Mr Kerber told the BBC's World Service. "The BDI would urge politicians on both sides to come up with a trade regime that enables us to uphold and maintain the levels of trade we have, although it will become more difficult." Mr Kerber added that any introduction of tariffs would lead to job losses in Germany and the UK.

"I get that you aren't familiar with all of this which of course is fine but its insane to simply dismiss it as speculation when these are bold face verifiable facts just because they don't dovetail with your world view." This for me has absolutely characterised my personal experiences of debating with people who are set on voting to Remain.

If you say so.

Crikey, Azira, I just read the rest of your 5.23 post and I do appear to have offended you! So, I will cease the debate here as I don't want things to get personal. I thought I was being reasonably conciliatory but it doesn't seem to have been taken that way. Sorry.