Bellenden Belle

Good point KK - my apologies.... mmmm, what can I possibly say? It's summer, tis the time to be frisky, boy, girl, frog....I say kiss whatever you can get your mitts on! And clearly more boys should wear cherry lip balm...

Is 'I kissed a girl' a video? Is Katy Perry a pop star...I haven't googled her (too early in the morning to risk getting that excited)...so was merely responding to your other comments Huguenot. Oh dear I need to return to the Old Fogeys thread.

In response to the question of how people would know a person is gay and your reference to not giving anyone "overt clues" to your sexuality.... well, I often see heterosexual couples who I know immediately are together despite their lack of french kissing action...affection is a wonderful thing to see in public - hands held, an arm around the waist and goddamnit a stolen kiss does not have to mean revealing your red lacy pants on Lordship Lane. There is a huge difference between the exhibitionist behaviour you describe and those small every day identifiers that every one should feel comfortable making. And I do think our sexuality is a part of our identity... our drive to find a mate, to be understood fully, to be accepted....these are all linked to sexuality. And for those young people discovering their sexuality in their teens or indeed younger the emotions felt - of isolation, fear of rejection, confusion - surely have an impact on a person's sense of self? I don't know if it's easier nowadays but certainly it wasn't easy for my friends growing up in the 60s and 70s. And let's not forget many homophobic attacks and much school bullying is based on no evidence at all ....just assumption and finger pointing.

Absolutely fantastic Declan.... you clearly didn't need our help at alll. Of course now we want you to bring home the cup ... waiting with fingers crossed and bated breath

I think this is a splendid idea - I used to rather enjoy rounders at school - can't run for toffee but give me a bat and I will give it my best shot.

Jus a quick note to say how lovely Friday was - lots of familiar faces but also a chance to talk more with Strawbs, Jaws and David Carnell, the prankster that is Azul, Brendan, and Chav - who once again entertained us thoroughly. AndrewcBlack - I am sure you once againn captured the evening, looking forward to seeing the results. Looking forward to the next.

Citizened - I think you might be gently ribbing me.... Why is it that we associate thinking and feeling and exploring with being feminine? You know, anger therapy is not a pretty sight - it can be raw, violent, and explosive - nowt feminine about it.... There's nothing gentle about challenging someone's behavviour - really challenging them to their very core - it's not a soft option.

National service, boot camp, disciplned rehab - call it what you like, I'm not convinced it is the solution. There has to surely be something that addresses these people as individuals - therapeutic intervention if you like - something that questions why their actions show some a disregard for life. And ultimately as a society we have to take responsibility for creating what is effectively an underclass - a section of society that puts so little value on human life. If we actually give them a space to examine their behaviours, if we give them a chance to answer for themselves the question "why", we might make them believe this is a society where they can make a contribution and where they will be valued and listened to. Self esteem and self repect - surely it's worth breaking the vicious cycle of feeling disenfranchised, worthless, and therefore what does it matter what you do? You can fight fire with fire, but a more challenging approach would be to re-educate people on what it means to be human - and that can only take place by treating them as such. But this approach is expensive and not a vote-winner - we are much more comfortable with the idea of drilling the notion of respect into people - stripping people down, rather than building people up.

Indeed, hoorah for absolutely adorable Moos! Funny, wise, and with a very kind heart.

She was terribly pushy, wasn't she... I always thought she was the owner. Fenton Walsh is a really lovely clothes shop on Bellenden Road. Stocks quirky and rather original items. Prices vary from "Ouch" to "Reasonable". The annoying inflection always suggested to me that she had stopped herself in the middle of a sentence - as if a bitchy comment was hiding underneath. But then I'm always intimidated by small boutiques.

God bless Sean and Moos... two of our nicest East Dulwich forumites - proving that with or without religion people can be decent human beings. I don't have too much of a gripe with religious schools actually. I was educated in Catholic schools throughout, and I reckon most teenagers make up their own minds. Most of us ended up cheerfully agnostic. And certainly in primary school religion and its stories can provide a useful structure to talk about treating each other with respect, kindness and love. But I do have HUGE issues with schools not teaching evolution and indeed I do have sympathy with James's concern about homophobia....and the idea of sending a child to a school where they will gain no properly recognisable qualification is daft. But - thank God (!) - this is a private school, not a sponsored academy (which I believe the school in the Midands may be) and as such it will be down to parents who can afford to make that choice. And if they are putting their money into that kind of education, chances are those children will be brought up with those values - for better or worse - regardless. Presumably the school on the site previously didn't succeed... chances are midst credit crunch this one might struggle too...

Cicelyl, I do think you will find that many very nice families bring up lovely children in (gasp) flats. If as Acedout suggests, houses are selling in the street for ?690K, then many families will even struggle to afford a converted flat. I wonder why it bothers you? I can see increased pressure on parking - sure - but I'm interested in what your concerns are?

Snoozequeen - enough with the accusations of racism. To say that Rye Lane is no dirtier than any other street - and in particular Lordship Lane - is simply not true. Far more littering takes place on Rye Lane - and yes, I go there nearly every day so I do know what I'm talking about. There is a difference between the people on Rye Lane and Lordship Lane but it ain't colour snoozequeen. What I see is old-fashioned class difference. Rye Lane is a poor area - economically - and that poverty can be seen across any racial divide you perceive. There are plenty of white faces on Rye Lane - and many of them are as weary and downtrodden as the other groups whose plight you describe.

Oooh Snoozequeen - Frog on the Green is an absolute gem. It has been such a saving grace upon moving from Bellenden, bereft of Petitou or Lucius & Richards, I have a number of times enjoyed their warmed chorizo and potato salad - simply fantastic.

I accept that Louisa is speaking from experience and certainly the picture that Louisa and several other posters have painted here of Rye Lane in bygone days does amaze me, making me feel like the newbie that I am! I guess like Spangles, Louisa suffers from having developed a reputation for always being upset about something or other. Whenever I read her posts the visual image I have is that of Lou Beale. Therefore I personally tend to take her posts with a pinch of salt. But I do value Louisa's contribution. Like so many of our posters, she is a character and (rather like Rye Lane itself) brings colour and energy to the forum.

Louisa - remind me - which part of SE15 do you live in?

Too true Snorky.... now I don't deny that I'm not that up on skag-taking practices but having lived here for two years, just off Bellenden, I have never seen any drug dealing taking place. But then I don't go looking for it. I have extolled the virtues of the area far too many times previously - for example http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?5,121254,121254#msg-121254 As a single(!) relatively young petite woman I have never had any problems walking round the area.

Mmmm, Tolga was so concerned about my bad experience at Codfellas that he sent me a personal message... "i bet you never even got anything to eat from cod fellas before and i think you need to get something to eat from cod fellas before you even judge it mate cod fellas is the best fish and chip shop in east dulwich" and then... my particular favourite pm: "what ever blud about it was shit i think your mistaken it for your cooking" I'm actually not that great a cook but even I think I could do a fish-off with Codfellas and they'd get battered. Battered? Geddit? Oh I'm cookin' today.... ooooh, there I go again!

I count my blessings, and know that in my hardest moments I have always felt supported. I know a very tough therapist who insists on personal responsibility for everything. He views all thinking and all actions as a choice. This can be infuriating when he is teaching and says to us "I know you're tired and hungry but we have some more work to do, so I say to you just make space." But I remember when I lost it for a morning shortly after leaving my husband - I could hear Paul's words -"Contain yourself...how are you going to do that?" And there was a huge satisfaction in actually making the decision to not give in to irrational thoughts and actually making a conscious choice to think and behave differently. The trick is getting into a habit of being aware of what's going on within so you can catch it before it spirals. And then knowing what might work for you - whether it's forcing yourself to pick up a phone and make a connection with someone, or to get out of the house and do some exercise, or physically pamper yourself... even if that reverse action seems like the hardest thing in the world.

My greatest fear is that I will reach a point in my life where I feel utterly alone. I look back at my mother's life - a terribly difficult woman - and I realise that she was very lonely and isolated. I am fortunate to have an amazing circle of friends and I'm fairly good at making friends - but it seems to me family bonds are very valuable and sometimes I wonder if that is something I will crave in the future. edited because I used the word incredibly three times!

Congratulations RosieH - celebrate! Don't regret a thing! I handed in my notice without a job three months ago - and left my husband three weeks later! And I survived! Good luck with the job hunting!

Hee hee - must say I agree about the North being friendlier .... I have connections with Northwich (just outside Manchester) and whenever I call them I love the fact that I'm called "duck". And plumbers and painters and the like are amazing up North - reliable and reasonable - even when they hear my poncey accent. I spent most of my yoof being terribly earnest about indie music and bands - The Town and Country and The Mean Fiddler were faves; and indie nights at the Dome (Camden? Tufnell Park?). I did "Wobble" in Brum - but spent most of my uni days being a fabulous fag hag in Subway and Nightingales (again Brum).

I don't get... people who say they would be bored if they didn't work. Really? In London? If money wasn't an issue? Crazy.

Oooooh, I just have no discipline. None at all. I have surfed the EDF boards; organised tix for Daniel Kitson on Sunday (hoorah!); made a lovely smoked mackerel pasta salad( I always turn to food!); and now I think I must MUST start work.

She's carrying a bloody yoga mat - where in the devil's name on that rocky hillside is she going to do downward facing dog? Personally I rather liked Nero's description - it was an engaging piece of writing that set the scene well. And you know what? I liked his bitchy dig - come on, why do we always have to be so saintly on here? As for dropping litter - I don't get it - put it in your bag and take it home. I think it's something we get from our parents actually .... I don't think I could physically drop something on the ground without the guilt killing me. Shame - sometimes I think that's what's missing in this country - a sense of shame. (Oh God - I have finally turned into my mother.)