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Well said Joe. Those older generations have a clouded view of their own past. Decline had set in long before we joined the common market, but of course they hark back to the brief golden period they were born into. That 20 year post war boom that delivered everything they could have ever wished for was paid for with post war debt. The near full employment and decent wages was the rusult of the post war reconstruction that needed to happen. Well the world is now different. Technology has replaced billions of jobs. And the percentage of people of working age to those over 65 is shrinking. Many older people though also understand this, but not enough of them.

Link here. https://www.facebook.com/events/1671704409745795/?notif_t=plan_user_associated&notif_id=1466859932632156

It's funny how Uncle seems to want to defend the position of the 40% in Scotland, but not the position of the 48.2% nationwide. Seems to not even have a balanced view of that, let alone anything else. We'll still be part of the European Broadcasting Union Uncle, just in case you still believe you voted to leave that as well :D

Agreed. Anyone who thinks there is nothing to worry about is deluded. But right now we need strong government with a plan. With every day that passes, it becomes increasingly clear how we've been led to the abyss by a small group of privileged boys who have decided to play Russian roulette with all of our livelihoods for the end game of an Eton power struggle.

Boris is a tabloid hack. Always has been, always will be. He was fired for making up headlines, so went into politics, where he was fired by Micheal Howard for telling lies. Now he has lied to the public and won a referendum. Do you really want this man for PM? He'd be in good company with Iain Duncan Smith though.

But the pound is still down by a third and ?100bn was lost off the markets. Someone incurred those losses. You need to understand how markets work a bit better.

Yes it's as though the result has given licence to the racists that we all know do exist in places, to behave disgracefully. I know that's not what you wanted to see Louisa, none of us did. That's a really worrying analysis Jaywalker. Of course the drop in sterling has signalled the start, and they have already announced expected inflation of at least 4% by the end of next year (which seems to reflect what you are saying). Many people don't understand why any of the economic babble matters, but it absoutely does. And your predictions if right, blow Osborne's economic plan out of the water. That is probably why he is in hiding and no doubt in panic. I think it also destroys any logic to his going for the leadership too. Who would want to be the one to govern over that fiscal disaster, if it happens. We are already struggling to get borrowing down as it is. I think we have to go for a Norway style deal, as soon as possible too, to stabilise what already were difficult markets accross the world. It's not what people voted for, but someone has to be strong enough to stand up there, put future ambition aside, and do what is truly best for the economy.

I think we are all in a atate of shock, including many leave voters who now realise it's not going to be what they were told it would be.

What worries me more is the disappearance of Osborne (hasn't been seen in public since Thursday) and the lame duck position Cameron is now in for the next three months. Meanwhile it is increasingly clear that the Brexit gang haven't got a clue what to do right now. There was never any plan for this scenario (i.e a leave win). Whatever the future holds, deal we end up with, it's as though for now, government has completely stopped! Meanwhile the SNP know exactly what they are going to do and have already started the road to new referendum!

Has been annouced that Scottish SNP are beginning the paperwork and process to a 2nd referendum on independence.

Quite Burbage. Opportunity for who? The same establishment that left the now aggrieved communities to rot for three decades. Only now they won't have to abide by worker protections. They'll keep the immigration though. Big business likes that. Those who voted leave believing the borders would be closed will feel doubly cheated. There are no winners. The MPs fighting for this referendum were not doing it for their own business interests. 'Free the UK' sounds very like 'Free the City', and we all know where that took us.

DulwichFox Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > FFS. You cannot just keep voting until you get > your own way.. > > Don't people get it. ? > > DF But that's what happens every 4-5 years. If a party comes along and promises another referendum (which they absolutely are free to do) there are potential 48% of all votes up for grabs. Seems like a no brainer to me, if I were a political party. This is why marginal wins are so dangerous.

:D good one ????. Have to share that on my fb.

Agreed Louisa. Both main parties are spilt to the core, and both are increasingly endorsing leadership that is moving away from the centre ground. But we've seen this historically many times. It is the final death throws of neoliberal free market capitalism on this occasion. It will be replaced by something esle that will bring stability eventually, but we are all set for a whole heap of pain before we get there. I was just trying to think today when the last period like this might have been. Mid to late 70's perhaps? The death throws of Socialism? Although I'm not sure the people themselves were so split then.

Seconded Wondercat.

But are we really leaving Uncle? The country is completely spilt. The Union at risk of breaking up. These are perfect conditions for the man or woman who would be king (as UKIP have shown). Leaving or staying in the EU doesn't hurt the politicians you hate so much. It only hurts us, one way or the other.

That is very brave Louisa and commands huge respect. You are not alone. The most googled term after the result from the UK was 'what is the EU' and 'How does the EU work'. I think Boris wants a Norway style deal, but he'll wait until he's PM to argue for that. The referendum is not legally binding and he will follow the direction most likely to give the Tories a win in 2020. Mugging off the Farage leave brigade will cost Labour, not him. So as difficult as this initial phase is going to be, I think he'll take the huge political risk of keeping us in but in the same way that Norway and Switzerland are in. The EU can not refuse us deals on those same terms. And I don't think he'll find it too difficult to get parliament to vote for that.

Cameron resigned because he doesn't want to be the one that has to sort out a mess he never wnated to come about. He knows that the end result is not going to be what the public on the leave side truly want. Johnson knows it too, but wants to be PM more than he cares about upsetting people. I agree on the shock factor needing to reside Louisa, but those voting for leave did not vote for a Norway type deal with freeodm of movement still in place. We both know that Johnson is not against freedom of movement. Anyone involved in business and investment at that level wants freedom of movement, and they are the people that run the country. Whichever way you look at it, the leave voters are going to feel cheated. What that leads to in terms of civil unrest is what bothers me. There have already been several reported incidents of racist verbal attacks since the result. I also think that those 27 nations of the EU are not going to make negotiations easy for us. There will be no 'special' deals, which is what all of us arguing for remain were pointing out all along, and you seem to now be agreeing with that Louisa. Yes Merkel is a pragmatist, but the EU is 27 nations. We may well be made an example of. Jaywalker is right on the deep feelings of mourning and the remain voters are not going to to sit quietly once the shock is over either. It wasn't just the job cuts announced yesterday, the business relocations to mainland Europe, or the ?250bn put on the line to save the crashing pound (a bailout equivalent to the cost of being in the EU for around 20 years btw), it's every downturn we are going to feel with every difficulty in those negotiations. Inflation is already predicted to hit 4% by the end of next year. That's higher prices for all of us. We import most of our raw materials, fuel and energy for manufacturing too. These are serious repercussions that are going to hit the very people who voted leave the hardest. There are already many people who are regretting having voted leave. 'What is the EU' was the most googled phrase from the UK after the result. It seems people suddenly decided to find out what they had voted to leave, actually is. If Scotland and NI seperate, we won't even be an Island anymore.

There is no winner from this. A 3.8% difference between in and out means just one thing - that the UK is split down the middle, just like both the Tory and Labour parties are. These kinds of divisions are what lead to civil war. Equally at loggerheads are young and old. Johnson has used the referendum to get the prize he really wants, which is to be PM. He and others looked decidedly sheepish today as it dawned on them that they are never going to be able to deliver the promises they made. They've sold people a pack of lies, and those who fell for them, are going to learn the hard way, the consequences. I predict that the new Tory leadership will drag out EU exit for as long as they can, in the hope the EU gives the UK some amazing concessionary arrangement. A complete exit with no deal will see the break up of the UK. It's not just Scotland, it's Northern Ireland too. Boris has never been for a full exit. The only person who is for a full exit is the man who isn't even an MP. Farage will have no say in how Brexit evolves. Had the result been definitive one way or the other, then it would be different. But just as with the Scottish Independence Referendum, narrow margins leave the door open for another challenge.

Harriet and Cllrs will not be allowed to let it slip away. There are people at Labour branch meetings who have raised this and will keep Cllrs and Harriet involved.

It's hard though to gauge tone in written language and tone is everything when trying to gauge intent. LM (as I) posts because of a genuine interest in the subject and in what others have to say. I think we both get a little frustrated when there is hard data/evidence to support something and it is brushed aside. That is only human nature. But I've not seen LM write anything that would rile with me. I on the other hand definitely have days where my level of patience is tested. But I usually stay off public forums on those days :D

Good posts Loz amd Rendel.

I think you are being unfair to both LondonM and myself Maxxi. As London points out, the other thread was a good exercise in debate. No-one was rude, or was offended even though there are complete differences of opinion. So much is lost in translation when people who don't know each other personally speak with written words, that it is often unwise to judge anyone from language alone. I've done it lots of times, mistaken humour for sarcasm for example. It's so easily done.

And we are not part of the Euro zone either. EU directives only impact on 16% of our laws also. So as Loz asked, take back control of what? And just on migration, we already have a points system for non EU migrants, and we let in more of those than EU migrants last year. It's commerce that drives movement of people, not the EU.

Seconded Louisa. You sound almost presidential in that post btw :D