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I think that is the problem with Cameron LondonM. If he deviates from his script, he ends up offending and patronising. This is well reported about him. I do think there were glimmers of clarity we have not seen from this debate til now though. The point he made about Turkey needing to satisfy 35 qualifications for entry to the EU and having to date only satisfied 1 is exactly what remain needs to get accross in challenging Gove and Boris.

Great talk there rahrah. If only the campaign could have been built around the points Michael makes. Thanks for posting that link.

You are bang on with pompous. That's what seems to aggravate people most. I've watched QT now and didn't think he was too bad, esp on points around the three main lies of the leave campaign. Where he fell apart a little is when pressed by Dimbleby on things he was trying to brush off as irrelevant. I think that the problem with all of these tv debates is that the arguments are so polarised that those who have made their mind up one way or the other aren't really listening anymore. So the fight is for the undecideds. Those are the people that should be making up these studio audiences. Otherwise it's just a repeat of the same merry-go-round of argument. Both sides seem completely unable to deviate from that. Will be glad when it's over, but if the difference is narrow between the two sides, I think it won't go away.

I haven't seen it yet Louisa, but yes, Cameron is off putting. He's almost like a robot imo.

Don't encourage him red devil. He'll only write something disgraceful.

Hi Doodlebug. That list was posted elsewhere and it was pointed out that membership of the EU would not and does not stop corporations moving to where labour is cheapest. Any EU country can apply for grants to attract business to itself. The UK has done the same. I can't tell you how to vote, that is for to decide. There are many like you who are left bewildered by the various campaigns. There is no perfect option in leave or remain. Both results have pros and cons. I based my decision to remain on not wanting to damage UK business (and therefore the economy)(and the leave campaigners acknowledge there will be at least short term contraction). I also want employment protections to stay, and want a relationship of unity with Europe. Do things have to change? The EU is bogged down by its own bureaucracy and over regulation. I think we can play a part in reforming that. Leave campaigners argue that long term we are better off out, but we have no way of knowing that for sure. I have especially been put off by the leave campaign by the people who are fronting it and the admission that they would do away with some of the EU employment protections (but they won't say which). That is number 3 on their hit list. Number 2 is doing away with regulations put in place to regulate banking after 2008. What the leave camapigners want, is an economy even more beholden to private business than it currently is, where ordinary workers have less security and protections than ever. I also think we should be looking to our own governments for blame on many things the leave campaign is trying to blame the EU for. But those are just my thoughts.

Also postal votes have already been cast. I think the sooner it is out of the way the better. It would only be a matter of time before the tone returned to the same divisive, extreme rhetoric we have seen. Let's get it out of the way and be done with it.

Agreed. And perhaps now too, it's time for both sides of the campaign to also think carefully about the emotions they are playing on. A very sad day for us all.

Labour MP Jo Cox was shot and stabbed this afternoon by someone who allegedly shouted 'Britian First' and is in critical condition. There's an element to nationalism that isn't good - whether it is xenophobic scaremongering, hooligans using football as a front for violence, or criminals trying to murder people. We should think long and hard about what nationalism really means, and just who are the people supporting it. And let's all hope that Jo Cox recovers. Truly awful attack.

Also Louisa, those EU migrants working on farms, are doing so because those farmers can't find local people who want to do back breaking work in fields or packing factories all day. I grew up on a farm and know many farmers, so know something about this. Market garden farming has always been low paying, and before min wage regulation, was often peacemeal (ie the more you picked, the more you were paid). It also has become more mechanised in recent decades, so the amount of labour needed on farms has drastically reduced. Take a look at the machine that harvests lettuce for example! Migrants aren't flocking to areas of moderate to high unemployment. Peole in those areas who are unemployed are blaming the wrong people in thinking immigration is the reason they are unemployed.

Exactly LM. The agreement is there and I can't see the UK ever putting up with a reversal. We can say no to Brussels. Margaret Thatcher did. But of course, it suits the leave agenda to keep with this myth that we have no power to shape anything that comes from the EU.

Yes, the Swedish witnesses acted immediately and it was a reported serious crime from the off. In America, there have also been countless cases of people with learning difficulties being wrongly imprisoned for crimes they didn't commit too. I've seen for example, interviews with suspects where the officer is clearly leading the suspect to get the answer he/she wants. This would not be admissable as evidence in the UK.

Have a look at LIFE MOBILE. They use the EE network too and have amazing sim only deals with no minimum term (better than your deal with Virgin Loz). All my family now use them with no problems and customer service is based in the UK and is very good. https://lifemobile.co.uk/Info/Tariffs

It's like saying banks should never loan people money for mortgages because they 'might' default. Our whole global economy is build on loans, interest and repayments. The only agenda here is from those who want to leave, again cherry picking what they choose to raise fear over, and playing on some people's lack of ability to put things into perspective. It's a bit like the lie that we give 350 million a day to the EU - yet they persist with it.

But again, where does the money come from for the bailouts? It comes from banks. This is the irony of the banking bailout. We borrowed money from banks to errr, bailout banks. We are all beholden to banking corporations. Leaving the EU does NOT change that. We also seem to live in the bubble that says it would never happen to us as well. UK plc has had to go to the IMF for a bailout in the past. Bailout money is a loan. It's repayable with interest. For those loaning the money, it's business. We are not giving the money away here. It's just like America loaning us massive amounts to get through and beyond WW2. It took decades to repay the loan, but America didn't go bankrupt loaning us the money, and made a tidy packet in interest over the following decades.

Absolutely yes, the Judge being a Stanford Alumni is a massive factor - for me the dominent one within the context of this case. Whether black people have access to those connections isn't really relevant here. It is relevant in the wider world of course, when trying to understand disaparities in both crime and juctice between black and white, but not I feel in this particular case.

Jameis Wilson. High profile college football star, protected by both the local Police and his college and escaped ever being charged. Civil cases though have seen massive payouts to the woman he allegedly raped. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/26/sports/football/florida-state-to-pay-jameis-winstons-accuser-950000-in-settlement.html?_r=0 http://espn.go.com/espnw/news-commentary/article/12710233/what-hunting-ground-shows-jameis-winston-campus-culture

But it's too easy to blame race for the leniency of the sentence. There were other things at play, which is what I'm trying to point out. If Brock Turner were just some ordinary working guy from a small town, he may well have got a bigger sentence. We don't know what part, college and sporting status played, connections into the establishment played etc. They obviously played some part, it was a heinous crime, but I'm willing to bet that had Brock been black and with all those connections, he would have still got a light sentence. There are plenty of examples of black male college sportsmen not being brought to full justice, if any justics at all, for equally serious crimes.

It doesn't have to be in a treaty. As long as the agreement is minuted (and it will be as with any official meetings), then it stands.

And also to add (sorry for the multiple posts), have we forgotten O.J.Simpson who got away with double murder (although now serving time for armed robbery)? Another sporting hero. There's no denying the disparity between black and white in sentencing in the US justice system, but there's also a different law it seems for sportsmen.

And then add to that the levers of power open to Fraternity Alumni, who are essentially major donors and lobbyists etc.

In the documentary Loz, students are encouraged to report to some kind of college welfare, arbitration body. BUT where students have gone directly to the Pilice, other forces have intervened too, especially in towns where the local college team is the main sporting attraction. It's an issue of male Police officers, Sheriffs, and local male college sporting heroes.

Dave is right. There have been some very high profile black college athletes who escaped justice and even charges too.

Yes but who is it that actually loans the money for bailouts? It's not us. It's that ethereal thing called international banking. The worry around defaulting of course is that the 2008 crash was caused in part by defaults. But the default of two or three nations on a bailout package is not the same as the scale of what happened in the US and accross world banking in 2008. We've been loaning money to non EU countries that have defaulted for decades. Like with any credit card, as long as the interest payments keep coming in (even if a few are missed) the bank makes it's money. And there is also a huge difference between bailing out an economy that can recover over time, and one that can't. Japan was a lesson learned since. Greece is also unlike most other EU countries, especially before the crash. She even lied about the health of her economy to gain entry to the EU. The failures of economy are the failures of something far bigger than and out of the control of the EU.

There's another tangent to this and that's the whole issue of rape and sexual assualt on University Campuses. There's a very good documentary on Netflix called 'The Hunting Ground' which centers around a group of young women who began to question why universities seldom act against perpetrators of sexual assault and rape, and very few cases are referred to law enforcement bodies. It's worth a watch. It isn't just about class/ privilege etc, but the powerful alumni and Fraternities that fund many US universities and particularly those with strong sports wings. There's a culture of permissible behaviour by young men that then goes unpunished. College football for example is a business, not an extra curricular activity. Its stars are protected by powerful money. Brock Turner is the one that made it to court. The are thousands that don't. It's quite shocking.