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LondonM is right on fishing and agriculture. I grew up on a farm and know lots of farmers, so that is something I personally know a lot about. But I also take issue with Louisa's general view that it is the EU who are responsible for the UK's general decline in industry. Manufacturing and raw materials were already well into decline before we joined the EU. Shipbuilding is a perfect example of that. We went from being one of the worlds largest ship builders to being one of its smallest, simply because of the rise of other nations - nothing to do with the EU at all It was always going to be that other nations could provide coal cheaper, or steel. The EU actually has tried to protect those markets for its member states. The harsh reality is that we can not compete on production costs with countris that have lower costs of living for their labour. And that, if anything, is what is responsible for our decline in manufacturing. You can not have cheap goods and high wages at the same time. But this is what we seem to want.

I agree on a narrow win with the debate going on beyond too. The Tory party may well end up with Gove or Boris leading, but I don't see the promise of another referendum any time soon either.

"I get that you aren't familiar with all of this which of course is fine but its insane to simply dismiss it as speculation when these are bold face verifiable facts just because they don't dovetail with your world view." This for me has absolutely characterised my personal experiences of debating with people who are set on voting for leave.

I find it incredulous that anyone would think what happens on the stock market doesn't affect us all, esp given the history of austerity that follows every single major crash. When markets crash, government tax revenue falls, which means spending on services falls.

Quite Titch. The problem LM is that immigration has been confused with economic decline. Most parts of the country have seen local populations fall over the past 40 years as people have moved to the SE (i.e where the jobs are). Housing has even been demolished in parts of the North because there is no-one to live in it! And then if you take seaside areas like Thanet (where Farage stood) - you have areas long in economic decline having seen recent arrivals of the wrong sort of immigrants for locals liking. So the immigration issue is nuanced and wrongly blamed for things that have nothing to do with it. Governments don't mind this too much though if it steers blame away from their failure to regenerate local economies. For local economies to develop and exist of course, you need people of working age. It's no suprise to me that older people per se are backing leave whilst younger people are backing stay. Older generations are the ones who were promised cradle to grave state provision, whilst forgetting how that was going to be paid for. Younger people are used to the idea of having to pay for everything themselves, but resent shouldering the debt and responsibility for what they see as a pampered generation that had the best of everything, whilst they will have no such thing to look forward to. We really are a nation of two halves, in more ways than one.

I think that is the problem with Cameron LondonM. If he deviates from his script, he ends up offending and patronising. This is well reported about him. I do think there were glimmers of clarity we have not seen from this debate til now though. The point he made about Turkey needing to satisfy 35 qualifications for entry to the EU and having to date only satisfied 1 is exactly what remain needs to get accross in challenging Gove and Boris.

Great talk there rahrah. If only the campaign could have been built around the points Michael makes. Thanks for posting that link.

You are bang on with pompous. That's what seems to aggravate people most. I've watched QT now and didn't think he was too bad, esp on points around the three main lies of the leave campaign. Where he fell apart a little is when pressed by Dimbleby on things he was trying to brush off as irrelevant. I think that the problem with all of these tv debates is that the arguments are so polarised that those who have made their mind up one way or the other aren't really listening anymore. So the fight is for the undecideds. Those are the people that should be making up these studio audiences. Otherwise it's just a repeat of the same merry-go-round of argument. Both sides seem completely unable to deviate from that. Will be glad when it's over, but if the difference is narrow between the two sides, I think it won't go away.

I haven't seen it yet Louisa, but yes, Cameron is off putting. He's almost like a robot imo.

Don't encourage him red devil. He'll only write something disgraceful.

Hi Doodlebug. That list was posted elsewhere and it was pointed out that membership of the EU would not and does not stop corporations moving to where labour is cheapest. Any EU country can apply for grants to attract business to itself. The UK has done the same. I can't tell you how to vote, that is for to decide. There are many like you who are left bewildered by the various campaigns. There is no perfect option in leave or remain. Both results have pros and cons. I based my decision to remain on not wanting to damage UK business (and therefore the economy)(and the leave campaigners acknowledge there will be at least short term contraction). I also want employment protections to stay, and want a relationship of unity with Europe. Do things have to change? The EU is bogged down by its own bureaucracy and over regulation. I think we can play a part in reforming that. Leave campaigners argue that long term we are better off out, but we have no way of knowing that for sure. I have especially been put off by the leave campaign by the people who are fronting it and the admission that they would do away with some of the EU employment protections (but they won't say which). That is number 3 on their hit list. Number 2 is doing away with regulations put in place to regulate banking after 2008. What the leave camapigners want, is an economy even more beholden to private business than it currently is, where ordinary workers have less security and protections than ever. I also think we should be looking to our own governments for blame on many things the leave campaign is trying to blame the EU for. But those are just my thoughts.

Also postal votes have already been cast. I think the sooner it is out of the way the better. It would only be a matter of time before the tone returned to the same divisive, extreme rhetoric we have seen. Let's get it out of the way and be done with it.

Agreed. And perhaps now too, it's time for both sides of the campaign to also think carefully about the emotions they are playing on. A very sad day for us all.

Labour MP Jo Cox was shot and stabbed this afternoon by someone who allegedly shouted 'Britian First' and is in critical condition. There's an element to nationalism that isn't good - whether it is xenophobic scaremongering, hooligans using football as a front for violence, or criminals trying to murder people. We should think long and hard about what nationalism really means, and just who are the people supporting it. And let's all hope that Jo Cox recovers. Truly awful attack.

Also Louisa, those EU migrants working on farms, are doing so because those farmers can't find local people who want to do back breaking work in fields or packing factories all day. I grew up on a farm and know many farmers, so know something about this. Market garden farming has always been low paying, and before min wage regulation, was often peacemeal (ie the more you picked, the more you were paid). It also has become more mechanised in recent decades, so the amount of labour needed on farms has drastically reduced. Take a look at the machine that harvests lettuce for example! Migrants aren't flocking to areas of moderate to high unemployment. Peole in those areas who are unemployed are blaming the wrong people in thinking immigration is the reason they are unemployed.

Exactly LM. The agreement is there and I can't see the UK ever putting up with a reversal. We can say no to Brussels. Margaret Thatcher did. But of course, it suits the leave agenda to keep with this myth that we have no power to shape anything that comes from the EU.

Yes, the Swedish witnesses acted immediately and it was a reported serious crime from the off. In America, there have also been countless cases of people with learning difficulties being wrongly imprisoned for crimes they didn't commit too. I've seen for example, interviews with suspects where the officer is clearly leading the suspect to get the answer he/she wants. This would not be admissable as evidence in the UK.

Have a look at LIFE MOBILE. They use the EE network too and have amazing sim only deals with no minimum term (better than your deal with Virgin Loz). All my family now use them with no problems and customer service is based in the UK and is very good. https://lifemobile.co.uk/Info/Tariffs

It's like saying banks should never loan people money for mortgages because they 'might' default. Our whole global economy is build on loans, interest and repayments. The only agenda here is from those who want to leave, again cherry picking what they choose to raise fear over, and playing on some people's lack of ability to put things into perspective. It's a bit like the lie that we give 350 million a day to the EU - yet they persist with it.

But again, where does the money come from for the bailouts? It comes from banks. This is the irony of the banking bailout. We borrowed money from banks to errr, bailout banks. We are all beholden to banking corporations. Leaving the EU does NOT change that. We also seem to live in the bubble that says it would never happen to us as well. UK plc has had to go to the IMF for a bailout in the past. Bailout money is a loan. It's repayable with interest. For those loaning the money, it's business. We are not giving the money away here. It's just like America loaning us massive amounts to get through and beyond WW2. It took decades to repay the loan, but America didn't go bankrupt loaning us the money, and made a tidy packet in interest over the following decades.

Absolutely yes, the Judge being a Stanford Alumni is a massive factor - for me the dominent one within the context of this case. Whether black people have access to those connections isn't really relevant here. It is relevant in the wider world of course, when trying to understand disaparities in both crime and juctice between black and white, but not I feel in this particular case.

Jameis Wilson. High profile college football star, protected by both the local Police and his college and escaped ever being charged. Civil cases though have seen massive payouts to the woman he allegedly raped. http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/26/sports/football/florida-state-to-pay-jameis-winstons-accuser-950000-in-settlement.html?_r=0 http://espn.go.com/espnw/news-commentary/article/12710233/what-hunting-ground-shows-jameis-winston-campus-culture

But it's too easy to blame race for the leniency of the sentence. There were other things at play, which is what I'm trying to point out. If Brock Turner were just some ordinary working guy from a small town, he may well have got a bigger sentence. We don't know what part, college and sporting status played, connections into the establishment played etc. They obviously played some part, it was a heinous crime, but I'm willing to bet that had Brock been black and with all those connections, he would have still got a light sentence. There are plenty of examples of black male college sportsmen not being brought to full justice, if any justics at all, for equally serious crimes.

It doesn't have to be in a treaty. As long as the agreement is minuted (and it will be as with any official meetings), then it stands.

And also to add (sorry for the multiple posts), have we forgotten O.J.Simpson who got away with double murder (although now serving time for armed robbery)? Another sporting hero. There's no denying the disparity between black and white in sentencing in the US justice system, but there's also a different law it seems for sportsmen.