Magpie

I know - my post is in response to yours, and I completely disagree - there would be large elements of the press, media, community groups etc who always take the default position of being against the police, and this would have been no different

Sure there is a lack of opportunity for these children, and this should be made available - but there is also a lack of responsibility; from the kids, from their parents, schools, and authority for failing to "civilise" them. Put simply in my view noone has ever said no to them in any meaningful way, but simply endulged them - this ultimately harms both the child and society. Billions have been pumped into inner cities, to what effect? Its time to review our approach to urban youth, sure make opportunity available, but take a much stricter approach to wrong doing and anti-social behaviour.

There are complaints about police action when they take any force whatsoever - if the police had been more robust on Monday night, you can guarantee that the usual suspects would be publishing images of 15 year old kids with black eyes and accusing the police of brutality.

I am in two minds on this - last night around 20 - 30 youths broke a few windows on LL - its telling that the only pub affected was the Palmerston (prob middle aged couples having dinner) as opposed to the Bishop (20 somethings drinking). However, Guardian/telegraph reporting that 60 year old man was beaten up last night trying to stop rioters in Ealing. The Turkish shopowners in Dalston showed the way, although I would imagine that they are probably a more fearsome prospect than a bunch of nice middle class folk from ED . . .

Zero tolerance is not just about jail and arrests - its about society self policing anti-social behaviour as much as anything, as I said in my post - when was the last time you told someone off for littering, bad language on a tube, feet on a seat etc

"There exists in England an underclass that does not exist anywhere else in Europe. White, little educated, without any means of social evolution, they are a perfect example of the results of Anglo-Saxon capitalism and its dehumanising program. The English perversion is to make this population proud of their misery and their ignorance. The situation is hopeless. I've more hope for the youth of our banlieues." has this bloke not been watching the TV?

On the rich - how about revitalising the victorian culture of philanthropy - where are the Horniman's of today? ;-)

That's just the propaganda you read in the socialist worker

Couple of points to touch on here - water cannons, rubber bullets etc are not authorised for use on mainland Britain - hence there are literally none on the mainland. There is a very different legal situation in NI for obvious reasons. However, it would clearly make sense to bring over some riot police from NI who will have valid experience in the matter. The Army would be a disaster the average squaddie is not going to sit back and do nothing while under attack - people would get killed. As to who is to blame - in my mind there is a huge list of candidates. Perhaps we should blame the police, who were slow to respond on Saturday both to Duggan's family, and to the subsequent riots - if they had cracked down hard then, perhaps the spread would have been contained. However, the police have come under heavy criticism for brutality during recent student and G7/G20 riots - you can understand their reticence, especially where there was a racial element involved, as there was initially on Saturday. How about complaints over their attitude to young black/ethnic males in London - the constant stop and search? Well one can argue that there is a link between low level street crime and poorer areas, and also a disproportionate number of poor black/ethnic people in these areas - so some of this "harrassment" is justified. How about Governments for neglecting these areas? well billions have been poured into inner city areas in the last 30 years - what has been the result? nothing much other than benefit dependency. What about the last government letting in 3 million immigrants in 10 years to compete for services/low-skilled employment, and weakening social cohesion? What about the current government with their cuts? what about the global economic situation and the bankers etc. How about us, the general public, who are too scared to confront low level crime/anti-social behaviour on trains, public spaces etc when was the last time you told a teenager off for littering? These children grow up without boundries, without discipline, as a result of weak family structurs, weak society, and weak schooling. However, all of this, in my mind is an excuse. Each individiual has to take personal responsibility for their own actions. So what should be done??? Well how about: Short term 1) Immediate and robust police prescence to stamp out the rioting Medium term 2) Zero tolerance of low level crime (by all) 3) Investment in schools/training/etc with a focus on discipline, and it sounds glibs but also extra-curricular activities - sport and music keep teenagers focused. 4) Benefit overhaul - need to break benefit dependency culture All of which is a bit obvious - so any other suggestions?

In the context of overfishing (such that wild fish populations for many species are close to collapse), alongside an ever increasing demand for fish, then fish farming is surely the "sustainable" solution. Farmed salmon has a number of significant issues eg disease, pollution, welfare and impact on wild fish stocks, but assuming that these can be addressed via strict legislation (as per land-based farming) then it is the way forward. An interesting side-angle is around looking at alternatives to sea-fish - most fresh water fisheries (trout, course) are managed for sport, although historically most medieval monastries/estates would have had a carp pond for eating.

This is very different to the two bombers - in both cases mentioned the perpertrators were suicide bombers - therefore they ultimately would not personally face the reality and impact of their actions. This is a guy who in cold blood (and pretty motiveless) shot some 70 teenagers, with apparently no remorse. No references to back this up, but apparently with most spree killers their kill rate slows down as they begin to process the reality of their actions - ie they begin to feel remorse - this guy just carried on. The biggest question for me is how he managed to keep going for so long before intervention, particularly so close to Oslo. I guess its as a result of lack of experience by the Norwegian Army/Police. I would like to think here that our own emergency services would be more rapid in their response, but who knows.

I can't help thinking that it would have been better (and more pragmatic) had he been "shot while trying to escape" rather than being arrested alive - the trial gives him a platform. I also assume that he is psychopathic, as opposed to insane - I can't believe that he will ever be let out.

Agree with Brenden here - there is a real disparity in asking prices and what things are being sold for, and hence sales volumes are low - as homeowners are holding on for a recovery rather than selling for what the market will actually pay. Some of the older ED agents will be more honest in their valuations - some newer pushier agents give high valuations to get sellers on their books, and then just reduce the asking price. Stick to you guns, and make some a few cheeky offers, and see what happens.

to be fair you need to factor in labour costs and a share of overheads to truely know how much you are getting stuffed

This may be heresy, but I have got a reasonable result by roasting bubble and squeak in a hot oven - with a bit of oil or butter at the top - only one side gets crispy though.

It depends - if you are using a "hoody" as a practical garment to keep yourself warm post or during vigerous physical activity then then why not, thats what the're designed for. If you are wearing it to sunday lunch with the in-laws, then probably not.

Predictable though - everything the Guardian hates about Britain - History, Tradition, Patriotism, Christianity, National unity etc. The whole day was a big FO to the Guardian reading classes.

He has you there Loz I'm afraid - a decision needs to be voted on (who should be my MP), the one that got most support won (the lib dems) - seems pretty democratic to me - the remainder haven't been disenfranchised, they were in perfect right to vote for whoever they wanted. The person they voted for could not muster enough support to win - end of.

My understanding is that you can rank all candidates if you chose to do so, by representative I mean parliament seats actually representing the relative proportion of votes cast - I don't see how AV creates a better link between the two than FPTP.

No one is proposing PR - to vote for AV on the basis that it is a step on the way to full electoral reform is incredibly optimistic. The only rational decision is to compare the merits of AV vs FPTP on the grounds of representation. The outcome of AV is unlikely to be any more representative than FPTP, it will still favour a 2 party system, and if anything it could produce more extreme swings than FPTP, as "core" votes would get outweighed by "floating" votes. AV would probably have resulted in much larger wipeout of the Tories in 1997, and potentially a significant Tory majority in 2010 as an "anyone but labour" vote would have increased the number of seats they held - look at council elections and see how they tend to be more variable than General elections.

This is hyperbole - AV is a tweak, no more. PR would be truely representative, but would remove the constituency link which many value. AV is conceptually and practically more complicated than FPTP, and it could well produce some "unfair" results, where for example, fifth or sixth preferences are given the same weighting as first preferences to enable Ed Milliband candidates to beat the Davids of this world - thats worked out well. Lets be honest, a lot of AV supporters are in favour as they think it will result in the Labour and Lib dem votes essentially being combined to keep the Tories out. This may or may not be the case, and the tories may benefit, for example, via UKIP votes, plus if constituency sizes are equalised then some of the built in disadvantage of the Tories will go. So actually the impact may not be what AV - supporters expect/want, but their agenda is clear.

Distance always matters over copper - they can upgrade equipment at the exchange or roll out fibre closer to the home (at the green street cabinets), this will increase the speed but the further away you are the slower the speed. The same is not true over fibre, although in some cases repeaters are need on route to maintain the signal.

Rare for the first day leader to hold out till Sunday evening, although a very good round. Anything from -2 is probably good enough to be in contention at this stage, which probably rules out Westwood which is a shame.

Brenden - I don't think you need to worry too much, Europeans dislike each other far too much for there ever to be a truly unified US or China style Europe.

Where Virgin has its own fibre cable, then it will currently offer faster speeds than BT, as fibre can inherently transmit faster speeds. As mentioned above, BT currently provides service via copper, and the speed declines the further you are away from the exchange. I get my broadband from Sky, provided over BT's copper, but get speeds of up to 14mbps as fortunately I live very close to the exchange which I think is on Milo road. Edit to say that if you are consistently getting lower speeds than that advertised then you can complain to Ofcom, who take this pretty seriously as they have criticised providers on numerous occasions on this issue