Mick Mac

He never makes me laugh.

I know. Tongue firmly in cheek AM.

Alan Medic Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Doesn't anyone have a job on this thread? It is my job. To make people happy.

red devil Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Mick's trolling = Mick's never had a thread this > popular before... :) I tried to leave it - but this seemed an unconnected point tbh (future rather than past)....

JohnL Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > ???? Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > David Davis has said that if Ireland unites at > some stage > then NI automatically becomes part of the EU. > That's a two stage process, the latter is the last of everyone's worries.

Jeremy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > quids - I don't buy this "Scotland good, England > bad" narrative that you describe, either. > (Although IMO you exaggerate how tolerant we are > as a country). > Agreed - I think we (in England) are intolerant of BNP/UKIP labels and voting etc. But there is stall a fair bit of underlying racist intolerance in this country I agree its potentially worse elsewhere in the UK, but in painting England as more tolerant, you may mean England's major cities.

red devil Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I think a big part of the Northern Ireland > 'problem' is that there has been too much > reflection on the past. At University I knew > people from both sides of divide, they could all > regale events in history that 'proved' they were > in the right and the other side were the baddies. > Yes we can learn from history, but sometimes the > past is best left in the past... After 5 pages I agree, not with your final line, but that this debate should come to an end. But I wanted and enjoyed exploring the issue in five pages. Nothing really changed, no one changed their mind, but I felt I wanted to do it and don't regret it.

I left this thread yesterday at 3pm, with a picture of a Guinness dance. When I returned this morning I found it had got all heated in my absence.

Otta Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Making friends and influencing people there Mick. > > Rendel and Joe have both kept calmer than I did, > for which they deserve credit, but Joe's post a > couple up is exactly how I see this thread. If > you're not knowingly antagonising or trolling, > then, well I don't know what to say. > I love a good debate. Even if I know I'm going to be on the weak side of the debate. But ill maintain that in this case it's because of where we are, not the principle. Knowingly antagonising - yes that particular post, specifically in response to yours was intended. But only because you became offensive to others - not before that.

JoeLeg Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- If you want to have a > wider debate on Ireland then start a separate > thread, I'm not being intentionally obtuse - but as I said, read the OP. I was using the death of MM to set the scene for a debate on exactly that - but specific to the very recent past in Derry, immediately prior to his involvement.

I didn't say English, I said we are in England I didn't accuse anyone of anti Irish comments on this thread I didn't even say McGuinness is a good or innocent man - I don't think I said that anywhere on this thread The point is to draw attention to how it started and was accentuated - read the OP

Otta Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I believe that all you are trying to do with this > whole thread is antagonise just to give yourself a > cheap little thrill. It's quite a nice bit of > trolling, but frankly beneath you (or maybe not). I'm not going to insult you, as you have others. But you couldn't be more wrong. This is an extremely important matter imo. As my OP said, a chance to reflect. The lack of (formal) education on this issue within England, the inability to be objective as a result of decades of media propaganda, and the inability of many people in England to hold their hands up and accept their country's role in instigating and prolonging this problem is shocking and abhorrent. And as regards no one on this thread agreeing with me? Well we are in England. You will find if you ask about this around the world, you will find it's you in the minority. Bill Clinton did quote Nelson Mandela in his eulogy to MM and it wasn't a direct comparison but it was obviously intended to be noted. If you are antagonised, it may be that you find the subject matter hard to take. Well, I'm not going to apologise for that. No trolling.

rendelharris Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > Neither - I was refuting DKHB's assertion that > Mandela had called himself a terrorist. There are > clear similarities between Sharpeville and Bloody > Sunday in terms of being pivotal moments in the > revolt against oppression, obviously. It was a rhetorical question, but I guess you suspected that

rendelharris Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- We are fighting for a South Africa > in which there will be peace and harmony and equal > rights for all people. We are not racialists, as > the white oppressors are. The African National > Congress has a message of freedom for all who live > in our country. > > I can't find any records of deaths caused by MK > before Mandela was imprisoned, can you? And if > there were some, Mandela and his comrades were > fighting against apartheid (and only turned to the > sabotage plan after the Sharpeville massacre) Sorry - is this post being used to differentiate Northern Ireland from SA ? or highlight the similarities?

Otta Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > In short, don't be fucktard Rodders. There are always people who will choose to insult the person, rather than address the argument. Of course few people in England will accept similarities between the situation in NI V SA or McGuinness and Mandela the person, as has been made clear on this thread.

Just the norm for the Village then.

MeGuinness

Yep - nothing could be that good.

June. I'm hoping for 2017. But I think I'd probably accept 2018.

Abe_froeman Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > It's like they've given up hope! Oh dear. Who'd have thought it would be so very very long.

rahrahrah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- Maybe his passing should be > seen as an opportunity to put another bit of a > generally shameful past behind us. History is an opportunity to learn about causes, effects and solutions You recent posts suggest you are a very simplistic thinker, willing to bury your head in the sand of easy conclusions It might have been better if you had sat back and ate your popcorn as you suggested you might do originally

The truth of the matter is that after Bloody Sunday there could be no way back. Not for a very long time. Its the most extreme act by any advanced western government on it's own people in the last 50 years. Lest we forget: 14 men and boys https://youtu.be/vkOpgr1ElXg

???? Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > The question we can't really answer though AM is > if things would have changed faster and without as > many deaths and lives ruined without people like > McGuinness, the IRA, the UDA and Paisley. My > suspicion is they would have... The truth of the matter is that after Bloody Sunday there could be no way back. Not for a very long time. Its the most extreme act by any advanced western government on it's own people in the last 50 years.

Otta, as I said above the comparable for this type of behaviour is loyalist terrorists. The Shankill Butchers were picking up random Catholics and carving them up in the back of black taxis.

I accept the points made in the above posts. The thread changed direction in my mind when RD asked me a direct question about police/army etc - I responded to this by citing why I feel they have on several occasions let the people down. The bar must be high for any government that operates within international law. The reason for setting up this thread was not to "honour" MM particularly, but instead to start a debate which I find many people here normally very reticent from getting involved in. My OP said, I think, this is a chance to look back. And despite knowing that I am pushing a boulder up a hill and in a minority of 1, I like the fact that people have engaged. It's good to talk/argue. I have already said that the Queen has come out of this whole process very well in my eyes. I also feel that David Cameron has had the awkward job of issuing two public apologies in the Commons during his time in office but he has stood up and not shirked the responsibility. These apologies are extremely rare events by any Government. What the IRA did was absolutely horrific. Everyone knows that. But the comparison should be loyalist terrorists (Shankill Butchers etc), not UK government. But I accept it was a dirty war.