david_carnell

We have been here before folks: Corporal Punishment And only a few months back too. But I said it then and I'll say it again for what it's worth: If every time you broke the law or misbehaved in public as an adult, the police would come and whack you round the head or wallop you on the arse with a baton would it instil a sense of respect for authority in you? Frankly, I'd begin to loathe them as authoritarians who think they are above the law. Rather than respect them I would resent them. Rather than being there for my own good I would see them as the enemy. We don't see physical violence as a method of curbing adult bad behaviour and yet it is deemed suitable and actually educational to do so to our children. And for every anecdote that will be wheeled out that "it never did me any harm" there will be the same number who could tell horrific stories of excessive parental violence that society tolerated because it "was what has always happened". I think smacking your children is only reflective of a lack of imagination and effectiveness in disciplining your children using normal methods. It is your failure, not your children's, that leads to it.

Splitters! Edit: You bugger Keef - 30 secs too quick with Monty Python references.

Yes. But then I'm in leg-irons.

Cate, I know who everyone is, their real names, addresses and family members breakfast habits. A small fee guarantees access to the inner circle. But in all seriousness, as Huguenot says, remaining semi-anonymous allows them to conduct moderation and comment in persona without crossover or needless accusations. It's no conspiracy.

Is he? Oh. Right. In that case I'll quietly back away, head bowed.

Keef - don't get petty and sarcastic. I meant "ever more diverse" as in we live in a society that has more variables than ever before and yet we still suffer from the same inherent problems that the class system highlighted so well. As I'm aware of your social service background so I thought it was naive of you to think different. Obviously you don't so I take it back. Sorry. Perhaps we are arguing over semantics. Whilst the old three tier "class" system is outdated and near as useless the "have and have-nots" in society are getting further and further apart. Income equality is becoming ever more disparate. Old working class professions in manual industries may have disappeared but they have been replaced on mass by other 21st drudgery like call-centres or retail. Low paid, low-skilled jobs remain in abundance. Poverty is still ever present. That's the new "class system".

Yes, perhaps with a "modern era" caveat. I suspect "class" was probably pretty bad in feudal times! :(

Keef Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I like that line, feel exactly the same. "Class" > is as abstract a concept these days, as "love". I'm sorry but I could not disagree more. Whilst the strict three-tier definition of the past may no longer be relevant in an ever-more-diverse society, to suggest that somehow the strata of society you are born into does not impact upon your lot in life is naive. Never has this country suffered from such huge variations in wealth. We have nearly a million children still living in comparative poverty whilst those that rode on the back of a flawed financial sector reap unjust rewards in the millions of pounds. Class is not abstract but a real, visible and definable concept in modern Britain. It may require an expanded vocabulary than previously, but it is more vicious than ever before. And as for the OP - I won't be shedding any tears.

I wouldn't call blindness as a result of gouging entertaining but nonetheless.... ....we'd give your boys one hell of a beating!

I'm not sure you understood me Tony. The first half of my post illustrated my particular experience and I hold my hands up to accusations that it is biased for that same reason, The second half, I hope, a more reasoned analysis of why I think that, in general, it is not a legitimate tactic in all but the most extreme cases. I'm fully aware of the fallibilities of anecdotal evidence - hence my natural distrust of them in your arguments. I just thought it might provide some interest rather than a firm argument. I'm presuming you are in favour? Why?

Thanks for getting back so quickly Barry. Whilst a sign up informing passengers of "IT problems" may have been informative it wouldn't have alleviated the situation. My "Ken comment" was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. Our former Mayor was allowed to pay for his journey at his destination due to having been "in a rush" to get on a train. I too was in this situation today and even had allowed myself 10 minutes to get my ticket in the middle of the afternoon (hardly a peak hour). I had an appointment to get to and just wondered if sometimes some sympathy with customers plights might not go amiss with barrier staff. There were even inspectors on the train I did manage to get asking to inspect my ticket when I'd got on at Peckham Rye - I could have bought a ticket from them given the chance - but these days that isn't allowed. A silly situation. Anyway, no real harm done just a petty annoyance. Keep up the hard work and thanks again.

99!

I was personally subjected to "kettling" in May 2001 when I attended the May Day protests as an interested observer. The politics of the SWP and similar aren't my thing but I was young, naive and wanted to see what the fuss was all about. At the end of the march, upon entering Oxford Circus, the crowd were prevented from going any further and then the police came from behind to seal off any route out. The tube station was closed off too. I had seen no violence and little anti-social behavior that day but there had been trouble in previous years. It was a fairly grim experience that seemed to serve little purpose other than to antagonize a previously peaceful crowd. After an hour people were grumpy. After two we were angry. After three we were anxious. Some had families elsewhere. Some needed bathrooms or water, none of which was provided. As it began to get dark and cold, small trickles of people were let through the police cordens and after a seemingly interminable amount of time I eventually was released. All of this is only my experiences and therefore come with the pros and cons associated with 1st-hand sources. Whilst I can appreciate the need for such tactics with violent crowds intent on rioting (football hooligans for eg) when used on peaceful crowds it seems counter-productive. Media coverage was biased against the protesters in their depictions of confrontation compared to my experiences and my belief in the rationale of the Met took a significant downturn. But it is low down on the tactics used by some of our European counterparts. I never wish to be on the receiving end of tear gas, a water cannon or a police truncheon. But this does not make it correct. Lastly it seems to infringe some basic rights which I believe should only be impeded in the most desperate of situations: - the right to protest - freedom of assembly - freedom of movement I would not call "kettling" illegitimate but I would counsel that it should only be used in extraordinary situations.

On a different note, after the dirty tactics used by SA in the last test does anyone think a dose of retribution wouldn't go amiss?

Hi Barry. You're doing a great job. I'm impressed with the new bits at Peckham Rye but the barriers are causing a problem. I turned up at the station at 13:30 today to get a 13:42 train. The ticket office was closed and with only one ticket machine and a looooong queue I had no alternative. I could in the past have bought a permit to travel and got a ticket later but now I'm stuck. I missed my train. Could we at least have another ticket machine please for when the office is closed. An the young man attending the barriers wasn't exactly sympathetic to my plight. If Ken can get through without a ticket exceptions can clearly be made. This was a situation that I felt merited one. Am I being unfair? Clouded by the moment?

Arctic what?

And yet you still like Bon Jovi?! Meh. So, can we have some reviews for last night from those that went? GigGirl, MrBen? What say you?

There is a great banner that simply reads "I love sausage". I suspect it's a Wolves fan.

Am watching the glastonbury coverage. Bloody epic. God I wish I could have been there just for this and then helicopter out after to avoid all the horrible camping element. You folks going tomorrow are in for a real treat. And GigGirl... Your wishes look like they will come true if he does a similar set list. All hail "The Boss"!!

Highway Patrolman - my personal favourite. Highway Patrolman

Jammy bugger. I'd give my eye-teeth for a ticket to this! Hope you enjoy it.

See here for an explanation.

Barty, ICMFP = I claim my five pounds. And no, you don't want to be snorky. That much cynicism ages one prematurely.

None of it?! I guess te bombastic stadium rockstuff can be a bit off putting at times, if you're not a fan, but have you listened to his more lo-fi stuff? Try the Nebraska album for epic Americana storytelling.

Really? How come? What do you find not to like?