Loutwo

TheCat Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Does the 'working class' still exist? A decent > tradesman will make more tha most office workers. > So where does the 'middle class' begin and end.... The working class is fragmented. You have a welfare dependent class, many of which will of course appreciate the Corbyn message. You then have a hard working but low paid class, who might appreciate some of Corbyn?s offering but equally be offended by him as a person and therefore not vote for him. You then have the former working class, who?ve made good financially but hang onto there cultural roots, and probably vote for whoever makes them better off in the pocket. Which probably won?t be Corbyn. And then you have the hard core die in a ditch Labour stalwarts of northern towns and cities, who want a decent NHS and well funded welfare state, but despise Corbyn?s Islington socialism, whilst also being vehemently pro-brexit and patriotic, who will hold their nose in a ballot box to elect anyone who isn?t Corbyn. Then you have people who live in 2 mil plus houses in Clapham, Putney and Dulwich, who will probably be shafted by Labour but vote for them because they want a scando-style socialist utopian bubble, which probably wouldn?t happen because the supposed 5% of multi millionaires who will be paying for this, will have already legged it to Singapore. The class struggle is real, but it needs someone like Tony Blair from a social democratic centrist stance to begin to remedy it, not a boogey-man from the far left who will scare off the high earners. Sweden or Denmark we are not. Louisa.

Grove boy Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > If that was the case surely the brexit party and > libdems wouldn't have been humiliated at the > polls. I think the previous labour strongholds > that lost voters and seats may have something to > do with Corbyn ignoring them and casting his net > at students and the Glastonbury type. Northern > towns didn't want to hear offers of free internet, > student fee's, tax rises. A so called working > class hero in Corbyn should have known this. I have to agree with this point. True old school Labour of the working class variety do not take to this urban wishy-washy socialism. It lacks patriotism, overtly in many cases. It?s how it comes across on the doorstep. Obviously the wealthy London right-on types, with money in the bank lap Corbyn?s brand up, but that unfortunately is not how you win elections. People saying it?s the brexit thing are sadly deluding themselves and potentially keeping Labour out of office for at least one or maybe two elections. Ditch Momentum, and get it back to the centre. Louisa.

Iraq aside, I will leave this quote from Tony Blair here. Food for thought. Tony Blair on Power, 1994 'Power without principle is barren, but principle without power is futile. This is a party of government. I will lead it as a party of government?. Louisa.

Blair did not try to appeal to middle england, Blair tried to appeal to everyone. That was his success as a unifying politician, or should I say ?electable? politician. He had the Tories number, he knew exactly how to engage with progressive politics, just as Sturgeon has done in Scotland. Echo chamber socialism does not work everywhere, particularly in white working class towns of the north. These people DO feel left behind as a result of Thatchers 1980?s decimation of industry, and need a voice which reflects their opinions. The Islington momentum brigade might be appealing to a few angry students and some champagne socialists who live in a 1 million plus house in Dulwich, but outside the M25 it doesn?t cut the mustard. These are the facts. Louisa.

diable rouge Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Would anybody who has cited labour's fence-sitting > on Brexit care to say what they should've done? > Which ever side they fell off the fence they were > going to upset the other side... Maybe they should have committed to leave or remain like the Tories did? Might not please everyone, but it?s a position of clarity. Fence sitting has achieved nothing for them, has it? But let?s not kid ourselves, Brexit was only part of the story. The Labour urban bourgeoisie continues to excuse and deny plenty of other dubious aspects of policy approach. Louisa.

cella Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Loutwo Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Labour?s fence sitting on Brexit and abhorrent > > treatment of Jewish opinions, saw me vote Green. > I > > changed my mind in the polling station btw. > > > > So after 10 years of Tory rule, the people of > this > > country could not trust the opposition. Says it > > all, and there will be plenty like myself who > made > > the same judgment call. > > > > No doubt the urban champagne socialists will be > > cupping their ears and blaming the result on > > Brexit and not on a unpopular Marxist leader. > > London?s bubble is just a out of touch echo > > chamber. Not fit for purpose. > > > > Louisa. > > > The fact that you've changed your mind/views > several times and then made a snap decision whilst > actually in the booth tells us much about the > reliability and robustness of your decision > making. Or maybe it just tells us that if a true Labour voter struggled in the ballot box, then Labour is obviously doing something wrong? The anti- semites scared a lot of people, as did momentum. Keep blaming it on Brexit though. Louisa.

Labour?s fence sitting on Brexit and abhorrent treatment of Jewish opinions, saw me vote Green. I changed my mind in the polling station btw. So after 10 years of Tory rule, the people of this country could not trust the opposition. Says it all, and there will be plenty like myself who made the same judgment call. No doubt the urban champagne socialists will be cupping their ears and blaming the result on Brexit and not on a unpopular Marxist leader. London?s bubble is just a out of touch echo chamber. Not fit for purpose. Louisa.

Just voted. Weather seems to be putting people off. It was empty. Louisa.

I think both sides are spouting BS. Just like the MP?s. Embarrassing. You all look and sound like school kids. What a shit show. Louisa.

What I find interesting is how despite all the evidence offered by the Jewish community, including Labour members of Parliament, so called paid up members fail to call out anti-semitism within the party. The right wing press have a field day out of Corbyn because his hardline opinions are entrenched, and unfortunately those anti-capitalist and Marxist connotations, whilst not overly anti-Jewish per se, have a heavy undertone of undeniable bias against the Jewish community. It?s not just worrying because many labour members deny it, it?s worry that they turn a blind eye to it. My vote for Labour this time hangs by a thread, and it would NOT have hurt Corbyn to apologise in his various interviews. This is a open goal for the tories in Northern Labour heartlands. Louisa.

I am heading to Luton this weekend (lucky me), and for the first time in YEARS I will be attempting to jump a train. Now, I?ve been told that a direct train goes from PR straight to Luton, but all the websites for travel are telling me I need to change at either Farringdon or Blackfriars. So does a direct train exist or not? It?s all very confusing. Thanks in advance. Louisa.

My vote for Labour hangs by a very fine thread, and I?m sure I?m not alone on this. It feels like the best of two terrible options. I am definitely more aligned to the brexit northern Labour heartlands than I am this metropolitan brand of Corbyn socialism. I feel genuinely trapped and forced into voting for something I know will probably never happen, and ultimately that?s because the best we can hope for is a return to the status quo, and hung parliament territory. And yes, god forbid, more Brexit Brexit Brexit ad nauseum. Louisa.

Blah Blah Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I was determined to no post on this thread, not > being a kiljoy, BUT can we at least ban the sale > of real trees? Don't we waste enough stuff > needlessly on this planet already? Surely plastic trees do more damage? I suppose it depends whether you?re looking at it from a C02 point of view, or the destruction of the ocean through plastic? Louisa.

Seabag I?d rather choke on my vomit than be forced to spend half a moment watching yuppies queue up for overpriced cheese on Lordship Lane. No, I will happily be spending the rest of November (today) drinking a lovely bottle of Argentinian Malbec with my feet soaking in a plastic washing up bowl full of radox. This is how I roll safe in the knowledge we are a solid MONTH off from any religious holidays, and this is how you and others should be spending their weekends. Btw Steve McQueen will make over that fence this year. Louisa.

And all other commercialised holidays for that matter. It?s November and Magic FM has dedicated there entire schedule to tacky festive music, Goose Green has been partly annexed by a commercial tree seller, thanks for that Southwark. Decorations on shops, lights on houses, charity collections, carols singers. GO AWAY! Humbug. Louisa.

I?ve changed my mind again. I?m going to vote Labour going against all my instincts. The Anti-Semitic stuff has really unsettled me, but I don?t think I can turn down the opportunity to vote for the most socialist programme post 1945. I just hope Labour will be able to resolve pockets of internal racism against Jewish people. I?ve been torn over this now since Labour released their really appealing manifesto. I may of course change my mind again. But for now, Labour reluctantly, gets my vote. Louisa.

BM13 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > malumbu Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > Quite an easy swap, he goes to the US to give > > evidence and in return Anne Sacoolas comes back > to > > the UK to stand trial for manslaughter (US > citizen > > who used diplomatic immunity to flee after she > had > > hit and killed a motorcyclist, whilst she was > > driving on the wrong side of the road). I'm > more > > bothered/shocked by the latter story. > > I agree Totally agree with this. Louisa.

In the Camberwell and Peckham constituency, the Workers Revolutionary Party will be standing. If I could flip constituencies to vote for them, I would. Louisa.

pk I think other forum users can come to a reasoned conclusion on who is correct here. I have provided two sources which show the Lib Dem?s ahead by a country mile, in enough constituencies to influence the outcome of the election in London. The facts are laid out in two sources provided above, I suggest you go away and re-read them both, and then get back to me with a thoughtful and coherent response, rather than a reactionary ?let?s have a go at Louisa just for the sake of it? response, which is getting boring on this forum. I was correct, and it was based on fact. Louisa.

Absolutely not. I was correct in saying the Lib Dem?s are indeed ahead by a country mile, in a significant number of seats, which will impact upon the outcome of this election in London. I?m sorry you aren?t able to compute my reasoning for reaching this conclusion. It seems everyone else can see I am right on this. Mathematics clearly isn?t a strong point for you. Louisa.

pk all the polling, private and public points towards a significant surge for the Lib Dem?s. They are clearly substantially up on the previous election, which will have a significant impact in marginal constituencies. The impact could be significant in certain targeted seats. Both Labour and the Tories will be knocked back into third place, based on this poll, in a significant number of seats. Louisa.

I?ve not made anything up. You do understand how first past the post works right? The Lib Dem?s have targeted specific remain constituencies of both Labour and the Tories, and are ahead in a substantial number of them. They haven?t just picked up potential votes across the board, which by the way could affect a number of marginals where they?re not in contention, but they?ve also managed to use their surge alongside their local targeting (something they are good at) to potentially change the colour of the map come December 13. The implications are far reaching, and if only Labour had committed themselves to revocation, London would have been in the bag for them. Instead, they will split the vote. Stupid move. Louisa.

pk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Loutwo Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > The Lib Dem?s are a country mile ahead in > London > > polling at present. > > > I haven't seen anything to suggest that LD is > leading anything by a country mile > > are you making this up or have you got a > (credible) source? https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2019/11/05/labours-london-lead-slimmer-2017 According to YouGov, Labour has sunk by almost 15% on the 2017 count, and almost all of that has gone over to the Lib Dem?s. Tories are static. Louisa.

JohnL that?s where I read it. The swing seems concentrated in marginals where Labour won last time, mostly inner London. But also in SW Tory/Lib marginals. So the Lib Dem?s will probably pick up a lot more votes, but actually only win a handful more seats. Louisa.

The Lib Dem?s are a country mile ahead in London polling at present. This could change of course, but it appears LIB/LAB and LIB/CON marginals are swinging heavily in favour of the Lib Dem?s, mostly because of Brexit revocation promises. Louisa.