Loutwo

The rest of the Labour Party know all this, but evidently Corbyn and his inner circle do not. And then don?t forget of course the SNP who would love to pick up some more seats. If labour had a more conclusive Brexit policy, people like myself would go back to the fold (maybe). Louisa.

pk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Loutwo Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > The London of 30 years ago was > > far more diverse and affordable than the > > capitalist hell hole that?s been created today. > > > > Louisa. > > when you see the place that you live as a > hellhole, surely it's time to leave? Come Brexit I think a lot of people will be leaving. Maybe that?s the only way to force property prices down. Louisa.

And of course, a GE could produce the same result, this leaving ya back in square one with a Brexit deadline looming days after. Louisa.

As I have already suggested, the whole point of proroguing Parliament was to wrong foot remainer MP?s into a General Election. And I would not be surprised if one is called within days. Louisa.

Jenny, I suggest you read this article below: https://deframedia.blog.gov.uk/2019/08/15/inaccurate-coverage-on-farming-in-a-no-deal-brexit/ And put down your copy of the Guardian which is not at all non-biased in its reporting. Louisa.

John I beg to differ. You?ve come out with a lot of hot air tonight, but sitting through your posts I am struggling to find any ?facts?. You have very little understanding of how a no deal Brexit would work in reality. You need to read up on WTO rules, and the limited actions possible to take by the EU in the event of such a situation. The doom and gloom scenario is way way off the mark, and I think you?re smart enough to know that. Louisa.

Jenny that?s not the case. We would continue to trade with the rest of the world through existing agreements on goods and services which would include agricultural exports. Louisa.

Jenny, on Ireland, there is no mechanism to prevent or fine the United Kingdom from not imposing tariffs on goods between us and the single market. None which would take affect before 2022, as I previously explained. It?s a fantasy. We would not be exclusively trading on WTO rules, we already have existing trade agreements and others in the pipeline about to be signed separately from the EU. And again, we will continue to keep a free and open border with the single market with 0% tariffs.. whether the EU/WTO like it or not. Simple as that really. Louisa.

The WTO has no mechanism for expelling members based on them making an exception for a open border into a existing single market, none whatsoever. And do you really think the EU will force us to have a border on the island of Ireland going against the Good Friday Agreement, therefore threatening peace and stability in Northern Ireland? It just won?t happen. They will tolerate a open border for a number of years whilst we sort trade arrangements out. We all know this. And it?s not sticking two fingers up to anyone, it?s making the best of a not so ideal situation. Louisa.

Jenny1 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Loutwo Wrote: > ----------------------------------- > We will end up on WTO terms and > > probably sink into a small recession until the > > economy readjusted to new conditions. It > wouldn?t > > be ideal, but equally it wouldn?t be total > chaos > > either. > > > > Please tell me what you think 'WTO terms' are > Louisa, and who operates on them? > Thanks. Asking for the UK. Well for a start, if we fall back on our existing membership of the WTO the Irish border issue disappears overnight. We will pursue a independent trade policy and ?go rogue? by keeping the border open to free trade whether the WTO/EU likes it or not. Current forecasts suggest they would have little room to complain or impose further tariffs until at least 2022, by which time new trade agreements would already be finalised with other countries. I think some food will entail 0% tariffs initially, and some goods such as cars will be closer to 10%. Louisa.

There really are some genuinely well respected posters on here, people who often make good balanced arguments, turning into complete doom mongers over this issue. Not even based in fact, pure conjecture. Very odd indeed. Louisa.

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Lou. You can?t speak for most leave voters but if > you were representative and most voters thought > like you themnit goes some way to explaining why > remainers say you didn?t know what you?re were > voting for - because that?s literally what you are > saying > > You can?t just cry liberal London elite at > everything you don?t like. The governments own > internal papers paint a very very very bad picture > (of a country that lest we forget, lost it?s shit > when kfc ran out of chicken) > > You continue to wave everything away just so you > can say in the future ?but no one was talking > about that then?. You will back up any half arsed > Hitler/eu garbage but faced with actual reality > and probability of. I deal, you don?t examine your > record in this and think ?maybe I, Louisa, don?t > know what I?m talking about sometimes? John I have never once claimed to know everything. But on this, my record is exemplary. I know what I?m talking about. I want us to remain, for all the reasons you and others have stated. But I do feel you and other remainers are perpetuating this idea that the world as we know it will come crashing down around us post October 31 without a deal. The evidence just isn?t there to back up your claims. We will end up on WTO terms and probably sink into a small recession until the economy readjusted to new conditions. It wouldn?t be ideal, but equally it wouldn?t be total chaos either. I appreciate your concerns for Ireland, Scotland and the continuity of the status quo, but much of that comes from your own entrenched belief system and is simply NOT based in reality. Sorry to say. Louisa.

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > I love Lou telling everyone to calm down having > admitted she hadnt the first f@@@ing clue what she > was on about in the referendum. > > Loads of leave voters were concerned about deals > Lou. They were repeatedly reassured by leave > leaders like Hannan telling them ?absolutely no > one is talking about leaving the single market? > and they would have voted accordingly > > Many of them have changed their minds and it?s > democratic to allow them to express that. Maybe > some remainers would now vote leave - but anyone > pretending that THIS is what 51.x percent of the > population voted for is full of shit > > The governments own internal forecasts are not > simply a ?rocky road?. They spell chaos for the > country > > And as jenny and others have said, all it does is > leave you back needing to negotiate a deal. And > then what? Oh then you will blame others again - > never ever accepting this is all on you for voting > leave and not seeking ratification I was never concerned with a deal. Most leave voters didn?t give it a second thought Sephiroth. I think all the hysteria being created on here is way more frightening than any no deal outcome. London?s liberal elite once again out of touch with what most of the rest of the country thinks. Louisa.

pk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Loutwo Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > pk Wrote: > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > ----- > > > Loutwo Wrote: > > > > > > -------------------------------------------------- > > > You seem to think the EU is perfect, > > No, I?m in favour of reform. Where do you think I > said it was perfect? > > others think it is a > > dictatorship > > Who do they think is the dictator? The unelected commission which, although only a restricted arm of the larger beast, still wields enough power to represent and perpetuate a lack of transparency. Can you honestly tell me that European Parliament elections have a big enough turnout to represent the true opinions of most European citizens? I don?t see how it could be. Louisa.

But you need some perspective here. You can?t assume to know what someone else is thinking, dr. If someone voted for something and still stood by it 3 years later that?s their choice. This is all getting very ridiculous now. Louisa.

Unfortunately some people don?t have perspective. That?s the problem. Louisa.

I honestly do not think leaving the EU is a good idea. But, I find it a bit rich when people talk about deals and no deals. When I voted to leave I just assumed we would be leaving within a few months and that would be that. It?s highly disingenuous of remain voters to assume everyone who voted leave had some pre conceived idea of how they wanted to leave. I voted to leave in any which way possible. I didn?t care about a deal, I wasn?t even aware such a thing was possible. If I genuinely still felt leaving was a good idea I would say let?s just leave, so therefore No Deal is a far better option for a leave voter than any half arsed deal. Louisa.

pk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Loutwo Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > they?ve followed quite a > > undemocratic and institutionalised path ever > > since! > > > > Louisa. > > > Based on elected representatives voting on things > yeah, that kind of i undemocratic? You see here lays the problem. You seem to think the EU is perfect, others think it is a dictatorship, and the rest of us are somewhere in the middle. The famous ?democratic deficit? has been discussed for a nearly 40 years. The EU can and must become more accountable to its people. Voter turnout at European Parliamentary elections has fallen time and again over the years. I think voter turnout in some member states was as low as 16% in previous elections. This is just not acceptable in such a huge organisation in which the commission remains limited in powers, but ultimately not elected directly by the citizens of Europe. They have known this for decades, and refused to do anything about it. Louisa.

Foxy was making the point pk that Hitler indirectly contributed towards the ideas behind the EU. And tbh, they?ve followed quite a undemocratic and institutionalised path ever since! Louisa.

Peckhampam Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Loutwo > Of course new comers want the businesses that > cater to their needs. Every new demographic that > has ever moved in to an area has wanted that. Why > should ED/Peckham be any different? And no > business can cater for the whole community...it is > too varied.....that's why it is good to have so > many different kinds of business. So I am at a > loss to know what it is you are wanting. my guess > would be you are harking back to a past some 50/60 > years ago when London was culurally uniform and > divided into class ghettos , a past that I am very > glad we have left behind. At least back then working people could buy in London. Nowadays people who grew up around here have to move away because house prices are ridiculous. The class divide is bigger today than it has ever been. The London of 30 years ago was far more diverse and affordable than the capitalist hell hole that?s been created today. Louisa.

pk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Loutwo Wrote: > -------------------------------------------------- > ----- > > With respect, foxy has a valid point. The rise > of > > Hitler was a second attempt by the German > state, > > under a dictator, to take over Europe and unite > it > > under the Third Reich. It began with the > > annexation of ?German speaking? regions of > various > > neighbouring countries throughout the 1930?s > and > > ended with them eyeing up the Soviet Union. > > > with respect, suggesting hitler invented the EU is > ridiculous With respect, if we had not had Hitler, we would not have needed the EU. The Second World War lead to European nations seeking a way of uniting nations under a umbrella organisation to prevent dictatorships such as the nazi regime. Without Hitler and his tyranny, the EU would never have happened. Louisa.

Sephiroth Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Always honest Lou > > Usually wrong > > Why would these protests drive you away? An > unelected prime minister is taking us towards a no > deal Brexit which is the opposite of that which > was promised - it?s entirely appropriate to talk > about democracy, the abuse of etc Prime Ministers in the U.K. are not elected as such, never have been. The party has the privilege of crowning them such. Not sure why that is always thrown up as a justification for anything people don?t agree with a government doing. Parliament could have walked away with May?s deal three times and chose not to. This could all be done and dusted by now. The fact is, most remainers won?t be happy until we get a second referendum in which everyone decides to vote remain. It?s not going to happen. And let?s say people voted to leave again, would you remainers accept the result? Or would you want a further referendum? Maybe the question could be ?are you really really sure you want to leave?? The whole thing is getting ridiculous! Louisa.

With respect, foxy has a valid point. The rise of Hitler was a second attempt by the German state, under a dictator, to take over Europe and unite it under the Third Reich. It began with the annexation of ?German speaking? regions of various neighbouring countries throughout the 1930?s and ended with them eyeing up the Soviet Union. The EU has done a lot of good things for Europe, but it has also done a lot of not so good things. It?s treatment of Greece for one, is a shameful stain on its reputation. I think we should remain, but not because I absolutely love this capitalist loving institution for wealthy unelected elites, but because I am a pragmatist who thinks we are so badly entangled within its structure we could potentially cause a lot of immediate and possibly long lasting damage to our economy. However, all these remain marches and two fingers at democracy make me feel very uneasy. As I?m sure they do a lot of people. Louisa.

I changed my mind on Brexit soon after voting. I still think we should remain. But the more I see these protests talking about ?democracy? the more the remain camp is pushing me and like minded folk away. I have to be honest here. Louisa.

Come off it. These new businesses in Peckham aren?t part and parcel of the existing community. They?re new businesses aimed at a specific demographic who have only very recently moved into the neighbourhood. You only have to read previous comments on this thread. What?s this character that Rye Lane has kept? Do you know how gentrification works? LL retained much of its character to begin with, as I?m sure Shoreditch and Dalston did 20 years ago. But how long will that last? The whole point of these new businesses is not to blend in, but to change the character and demographic of the place and then house prices go up (which they?re already doing) and before you know it we have another Northcote Road on our hands. Let?s not pretend this isn?t actually happening. Louisa.