silverfox

dulwichal, I don't wish to appear pedantic but it doesn't surprise me you plumped for the Grauniad home delivery service given the misspelling of the word 'newspapers' in the title of your thread. What are the chances of the delivery boys delivering to your correct address? But then again, you probably won't mind, or even notice. Edited for deliberate typo, 'Grauniad'

The Test Card on the telly. The innocent looking girl with the doll, or whatever, and all those squiggly lines accompanied by tunes such as Green Sleeves. Try explaining that to the Sky Plus, HD, 3-D, Facebook, Twitter, generation and they won't bloody believe you.

There are times when being pedantic is the correct thing to do, especially if someone, a body, is trying to convince you using suspect facts. However, the thing that annoys me is the rogue apostrophe that is becoming commonplace, partly I suspect due to thick, badly educated, advertising creatives/executives, eg, CD's, DVD's, 1800's, 1900's etc. In all these cases the words are plurals (NB more than one, thick advertising jerk) - the apostrophe (ie possessive here)shouldn't be there. To say, eg, 'In the 1960's the Beatles were great' means 'In the of 1960s the Beatles were great' - ie nonsense. Look at most Virgin Airlines/HMV records ads and you'll see the English language being murdered. Ps, s's after people's names. Licence/license, as noun, interchangable if used consistently, ie you can use American English as long as you are consistent. In English the rule is c when noun, s when verb, ie, (English, English) it is the role of magistrates to license public houses to sell alcohol. Pubs are licensed to sell alcohol. Pubs have licences to sell alcohol. Other than that, yes, pedants, don't you hate them.

vimma01, we need people like you to contribute to the 'Is there a God?' thread in the drawing room. You see, after 500-odd posts we've reached an impasse. We've got to the stage - yes there is, maybe, might be, prove it, no there isn't. It would be refreshing if we had another point of view that wasn't essentially Christian-based. Don't be put off by some of the non-believers. Their bark is worse than their bite and at the end of the day they're only searching for answers like the rest of us.

Thanks, never heard of this before.

Posted by: Loz Today, 03:57PM People talking and chatting loudly in the 'quiet' carriage on trains and the sodding staff doing feck all about it... It's been a good few years since I last took a train but I'm intrigued by this idea of 'quiet' carriages. How much more does it cost to book a quiet carriage?

I accept that Huguenot, and maybe I read too much into Santerme's post. I agree Afghanistan is in the dark ages. But then that's me putting my Western Liberal values on it. The best solution in all these cases, once the main threat or obstacle has been removed by military force, is that the people themselves decide how to rebuild their country. The danger is aid agencies try to encourage the indigenous population to adopt liberal parliamentary democracies and belief systems that cannot simply be imposed on countries that don't have the institutional structures necessary to support them. If such countries decide, for example, that girls should not be educated or even be able to vote, to what extent should we interfere? If aid workers are seen to be interfering rather than helping, to be the lackeys of the invading forces, then the aid agencies are in danger and the suffering of the populace will be compounded.

The reason I took issue with aspects of your post Santerme, was over the idea of aid workers. The me, Aid Workers should be apolitic, non-ideological, bodies and individuals who provide aid. Their role is to go into countries thrown into disarray and confusion by the inevitable consequences of war. So Medecin Francais, Red Cross, Red Crescent, Oxfam etc go into, the countries and provide aid, in whatever form, food, medicine, repair water pipes, power cables etc. They do this to help people regardless of race, creed or colour. I got the impression reading your post that you see the aid agencies as some sort of fifth column, or at least an active part of the invading forces whose aid, teaching etc, will instill on these countries the superior values of the western world. If this is the case, where aid agencies no longer distribute dispassionate aid but whose aim is to change the ravaged country, changing its socio-political structures and imposing ideology, then those aid agencies become fair game in the shooting match. In this sense, to a fighting Afghan, Linda Norgroves was part of the invading forces, as much of an enemy as any of the other soldiers. PS - Can anybody tell me which aid body she actually worked for?

During the rescue of the miners there was a lot of talk about God, faith, battles with the devil and so on. As Sean rightly said, many of the miners were religious and so naturally they would have thanked God. Notions of the devil being in mines is also, I understand, embedded in the folklore of miners throughout the Andes. We were observers on this particularly Chilean event, not necessarily understanding the cultural background, but nevertheless able to understand the universal themes of struggling against adversity. Personally I haven't stated or implied that faith or God had anything to do with the rescue or survival. Others appear happy to do that on my behalf. What I have said is that it was humans that released the miners. Science did bugger all on its own. Drills don't drill themselves, winches don't winch by themselves. Men harnessed the products of science, the tools to effect the rescue. Science rescued nobody. Now, we're being told, baboons are quasi-scientists, examples of science in action, using empirical observation, setting up hypotheses, testing them, and proving theories. Let's hope a careless tourist doesn't drop a calculator lest Mr Baboon disproves relativity then we'll all be in trouble.

I repeat Mockney. Nowhere have I said this rescue is anything to do with a god. All I did was state a fact that in times of trouble people call upon or turn to God, a god. I was agreeing with Ridgley's generally accepted observation. The rest of what I'm supposed to have said has been made up in your own heads. Not content with inventing what I am supposed to have said, you Mockney are now trying to extrapolate theories from words that you attribute to me. Fascinating behaviour.

It is not uncommon in the wild to see baboons inserting stalks of grass into ant-hills. The ants crawl on the straw that is invading their nest and the baboon withdraws the straw and enjoys a nutritous little snack. There's no science involved here. The baboon is using its wits and a tool to achieve an objective. Now, assume a careless tourist on safari drops an object. Let's say a pen. I doesn't matter what its made of, plastic or metal. That pen will have been crafted, designed, manufactured, using modern efficient processes, at a factory powered by fuel and so on. The fact that its production is possible may be the combined result of numerous scientific, technological and engineering discoveries and breakthroughs stretching back to the dawn of the Summarian civilisation. The baboon picks up the pen, inserts it into the ant-hill and gains another snack. Now, what is the observer to make of this? Has the use of the pen been some scientific, evolutionary breakthrough equivalent to the mysterious monolith in the film 2001? Or, more rationally, did the baboon simply use it as a tool in the same way the stalk of grass was used? Back to the rescue of the Chilean miners. People pulling together using their skills and ingenuity use a range of tools available to them to release 33 trapped miners. This is seen in some quarters as a rescue by science, not by people, as if 'science' is some autonomous existing entity that operates independently of humans. It was the drills, pulleys, cables, generators that saved the miners. Man was a by-stander. Woe betide anyone who questions the pre-eminent and superior role of science here. You will be 'Chortled' at, accused of being prejudiced, silly and sworn at. People will misconstrue what you have actually said, it smacks of desperation they'll say, it implies attacks against athiests. It's simple really. The rescue of the miners was an uplifting triumph of mankind over adversity. It lifted the spirits of millions. It went to the heart of what it is to be human. Killjoys can't see that. Edited to answer Sean's question. Nowhere have I suggested this rescue had anything to do with a god. You are all bringing your preconcieved assumptions to bear on this. Of course atheists could have survived depending on their mental strength and fortitude. And before anyone jumps to conclusions, my example of baboons isn't an attack on athiests. Athiests are perfectly capable of sticking straws in ant-hills.

moodsk Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Good evening, > > I would like to suprise my girlfriend with a > putting-a-ship-in-a-bottle lesson somewhere in > London but am struggling to find anywhere/anyone > that can offer any ideas on where to start > looking. If anyone knows anything about this hobby > please let me know. > > Thanks, > > Pete moodsk/Pete, I'm afraid I can't see this relationship lasting. Best wishes though Silverfox

Re: I say southwark - fortnightly bin collections Posted by Peckhamgatecrasher Yesterday, 07:34PM Idiot question: where do wine corks (real, not plastic) go? Re: I say southwark - fortnightly bin collections Posted by James Barber Yesterday, 08:23PM Hi Peckhamgatecrasher, Real wine corks are wood and should go in brown garden waste recycling. Regards [email protected] ... Re: I say southwark - fortnightly bin collections Posted by Peckhamgatecrasher Yesterday, 08:31PM Thanks. (I may need an extra brown bin!) Made me laugh PG - especially your emphasis on 'real' wine corks.

Wow Huguenot, the hangover must have been a stonker this morning looking at that lot. What on earth are you babbling on about? Do you think the 33 miners gave a fig about the combustion engine or ladies nylons while their bellies were aching with hunger in the first 17 days? They got on with the fight for survival, something that comes from inside their heads and the fibre of their characters. Something I hope Huguenot, you will never have to go through lest your 'faith' in science is challenged.

Query. Could the people who were foreclosed upon (the foreclosees?) afford the mortgage payments? There is an argument to say it's better a person losing the house owing ?10,000 than waiting to owe ?20,000 and then lose the house. Edited to say just watched your YouTube link. There's nothing new here. Robert Peston explained these bundled up loans years ago and we all knew that the ratings agencies were up to their necks in it. The real scandal is governments haven't taken the oportunity to address these wrongs, jail half the perpetrators, and bring in tough new rules.

SeanMacGabhann Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > > > do they? If i keel over of a heart attack, I'll be > calling for medical care not a god > > chilean miners thanked god when they came out but > they may well be already religious. It was still > science that got them out of a mine tho The fact is in times of trouble people do call on the idea of a god. Your doctor, Sean, is a secular god. He/she may save you. As for science getting the miners out of that jam I think you misunderstand what the world has just witnessed. If by science you mean a pulley wheel and a drill then so be it. The miners survived by means of old fashioned pulling together and a sense of order. If anything 'science' has learned from their ordeal - not least Nasa, who have studied them so as to plan trips to Mars etc.

Why the plug for jh skincare TheArtfulDogger? Vested interest perhaps?

Santerme said: "...She wasn't working for some "peace through sustainable bicycling collective" but as a sub-contractor on a very large USAID program..." Who exactly was she working for as an aid worker? The idea she was a subcontractor implies she was in it for the money rather than some humanitarian impulse. Sorry Santerme, the notion that 'aid workers' will somehow save the world is quite frankly nonsense. "...Those fighting and dying in Afghanistan, even if they don't know it, are fighting to create a space to let the aid workers do what they do..." Steady on Santerme.

Well DJKillaQueen we can't all be as smart as you - that's why faith schools are so popular because they have a generally high standard of education combined with a degree of discipline that helps those who are not naturally brilliant like yourself. I still maintain that comprehensive education let down a lot of people in this country. At least the old Grammar/Secondary Modern system catered for the less academically gifted with practical skills and training rather than dismissing them as failures because they didn't get so many Ucca/Pcas points.

Jeremy, my point was people believe many things. Mumbo-jumbo was your dismissive phrase. I see that Druidism has now been given the status of religion. Personally I think it's a load of nonsense and all that welcoming in the Summer Solstice a bit batty. People believe in homeopathy, again nonsense. But people pay money to take courses in the 'subject' and go on to be practitioners and people pay them for their dubious quackery. If the Druids set up a school with state funding would I object? No. Nor to Homeopathy schools but I wouldn't send my children there even if every pupil got A-stars at A-Level and I wouldn't feel discriminated against either. As long as such views are not taught to the exclusion of pre-agreed standards in academic subjects. That is, faith schools are more about the ethos of the school. They do not say 1+1=2 because God says so, or God really invented Archimedes Principle. My limited understanding of Creationist schools in the US is they are not allowed to teach creationism exclusively, but together with and as an alternative view to evolution, which, don't forget, is only a theory that cannot explain the origin of life on earth, albeit a compelling one.

While I would agree that this bunch of born again creationists are misguided it hardly constitutes a threat against society - if anything it stimulates debate. And it will be interesting to compare some of the new schools that arise under Michael Gove's plans where groups of parents set up schools/home learning. I dread to think what those kids will be taught by those biased parents. Far more damaging to society, I would argue, have been the secular and left-wing views that brought in comprehensive education in the 70s and 80s that condemned a generation of children to substandard education for ideological reasons. The reason faith schools exist is because state education has been constantly tinkered with by well-meaning but misguided fools all in the name of equality and secularisation.

If "... parents pretend to believe the aforementioned mumbo-jumbo in order to get their children into the best performing schools..." then, yes it is wrong. However, if parents believe the mumbo-jumbo why is that wrong? There are plenty of believers who can't get their children into some of the best faith schools for the simple reason they are oversubscribed. Secularisation has plenty of mombo jumbo of its own. Faith schools exist because we live in a democracy. Where everybody is fed the same line that's usually found in totalitarian states.

Surely faith schools are representative of society's mix? Society isn't a homogeneous secular mix but is made up of people with different creeds - hence faith schools. I don't feel discriminated against because there are Muslim or Jewish schools that may not admit my child. Even if the social engineers abolished faith schools there would still be 'discrimination' by fee paying schools being beyond the reach of many, or state schools that are outside your catchment area - is this discrimination by postcode? Having a totally secular schooling system will still result in inequality of standards.

Taper said: "... I think the extistence of faith schools is the most reprehensible aspect of our education system. Something like 1/3 of southwark schools are allowed to discriminate on the basis of a child's parent's religion." At least this is a different tack from the usual bleating on this forum about objecting to taxes subsidising these schools. However, if you find their existence reprehensible and do not agree with them, why would you want to send your children there? In short, how are you possibly being discriminated against?

HAL9000 Wrote: ------------------------------------------------------- > Spot Gold has just hit US$1,364.55 per Troy ounce > - an all time high. That's got to be telling us > something bad is coming our way on the inflation, > interest rate and foreign exchange fronts. Good news for those companies that get you to sell them your gold for a pittance though.