Voting to remain

[DulwichFox]

Thw Government UE remain Leaflet weighs 38gms..

A copy of which was sent to approx 27.6 million households..

That is approx 998 UK tons of waste paper..

DulwichFox

[maxxi]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> Lot's of people have given Louisa plenty of

> reasons to remain but she chooses to ignore them,

> but then what do you expect from someone who

> thinks only 200,000 jobs rely on exports to the

> EU. Louisa, like most Brexit supporters, isn't

> speaking from a place of much, if any, accurate

> understanding or knowledge of the EU.

>

> I also don't accept that Brexiters are more likely

> to be motivated to vote either. I know plenty of

> in voters who are voting to make sure the

> Brexiters don't win.

This kind of garbage is silly. Taking the likes of Lou and Farage et al out of the equation for the moment, I don't think it helps to constantly attack and belittle those with an opposing view.

Calling them 'Brexiters' and 'Little Englanders' smacks of the time when concerns re immigration saw people condemned as racists.

It's Politburo tactics of the slimier sort, smacks of the smug urban elite telling the rest of the UK that they don't know what they're doing and should leave all this to those that do and reminds me (as did watching the oleaginous Peter Mandelson take this very tack the other night) of the worst excesses of New Labour's suffocating bureaucracy.

For myself, having been an 'out' I'm now an 'in' (on the info so far) despite the likes of Blairites like BlahBlah rather than because of them.

[Blah Blah]

Maxxi, Louisa invites it when she dismisses every poster who opposes her as crazy. She's never interested in any view but her own, even when it is shown up for being ill informed. We've all been head to toe with her on this for a while now.

And my use of 'Brexiter' is simply an easy way to descibe someone who is voting for Brexit. You should stop applying connotations to the use of language that don't exist.

[Loz]

I might be wrong, but I took Louisa's non-response to my 5 reasons to stay as a grudging acceptance.

[????]

Didn't Mandleson say it would be a disaster if we didn't join the Euro?

My economic fear is just (just) outweighingi my political fear that the lack of engagement from us (and i include many other non-UK europeans in that) and the MEPS/Brussels itself is dangerous for politics. I really can't see the bureacracy and unaacountability being reformed either...

I am just a borderline in, but i'd not be horrified by an out.

and, yes, as Maxi says , the stoopid reflex link between anyone who questions it with 'little englanders' (who do of course exist) is smug, guardianista crap

[Loz]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> And my use of 'Brexiter' is simply an easy way to descibe someone who is voting for Brexit. You

> should stop applying connotations to the use of language that don't exist.

I don't think Brexiter is problematic. 'Little Englander' is, though.

[uncleglen]

I've already stated in an earlier post- definitely OUT for me. Extra layers of political interference (much of it from unelected politicians) is always bad and expensive....

And as for the car manufacturing stats- you cannot compare the last 10 years with the years following entry into the EU. You only need to look around to see that very few cars on our roads are built in the UK- also in 1972 we built 1.92 million cars which considering car ownership was not ubiquitous like it is now is quite amazing, and is more than the 1.6 million manufactured last year.

[Loz]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> I've already stated in an earlier post- definitely OUT for me. Extra layers of political interference

> (much of it from unelected politicians) is always bad and expensive...

Always? So you are saying a single layer of government is the best system? No more local councils, no counties, no England/Scotland/Wales/NI.

[Blah Blah]

Yeah that makes no sense to me either Loz. Is Uncle arguing for one tier of government?

[TheArtfulDogger]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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> Yeah that makes no sense to me either Loz. Is

> Uncle arguing for one tier of government?

He is arguing to remove extra tiers ABOVE our own government (i.e. Euro MPs and so on)

[Loz]

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

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> Blah Blah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Yeah that makes no sense to me either Loz. Is

> > Uncle arguing for one tier of government?

>

> He is arguing to remove extra tiers ABOVE our own government (i.e. Euro MPs and so on)

Yes, but he seemingly phrased it to make a "I hate the EU because it is the EU" into a more generic comment on government. Scratch the surface of such arguments and they quickly fall apart.

It also fails to appreciate that these 'extra layers' are functional and would need to be done anyway, with the associated extra costs as I pointed out in the '5 reasons' post above.

[TheArtfulDogger]

Interesting point Loz, yes the functions will need to be done, but at the moment someone in Europe does it, passes the decisions and money to an existing department in the UK who then passes it on, surely we already have most of the departments in place just paying lip service to the European departments and counterparts. I am not convinced by your argument that we would need to create extra departments to do what is already happening as money doesn't just appear in business accounts here without passing through our government (or their departments) first, but if we do need to have more departments that would mean more jobs created. Win win for brexit I personally believe based on your argument.

[Loz]

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

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> I am not convinced by your argument that we would need to create

> extra departments to do what is already happening as money doesn't just appear in business accounts

> here without passing through our government (or their departments) first, but if we do need to

> have more departments that would mean more jobs created. Win win for brexit I personally believe

> based on your argument.

Except you are not factoring in the jobs lost in Europe. There are quite a few UK people working in Brussels.

It's simple - if a job is paid for by 28 countries, the cost to each country is going to be less than if each country does the work individually.

You really think needless public sector job creation is a good argument for Brexit?

[TheArtfulDogger]

Loz

we pay more than our fair share to employ the eu representatives and departments, therefore bringing the work in house and redeploying those resources here (no expense accounts for living in Brussels...) will represent a saving to the UK plus safeguard their jobs

Sorry but I am finding your argument on this point weak and lacking in vision.

[Seabag]

Here's how I mentally picture the whole thing

In my head, I've created "The Brexit Arms" public house

Behind the bar is BoJo and Wassis face Farage, pulling British pints and 'hurrahing' as they do so

It's full of fag smoke, they sell pies and it's populated by the likes of Foxy, Louisa and now Dogger along with many more of the Forum odd bods. A bit like the Wishing Well in Bellenden road used to be

So I ask myself, do I want to go in or just walk on by

Simple answer, NO

*Feel free to PM me your Forum odd bod, I'll edit the clientele of TBA accordingly*

[Loz]

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

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> Loz

>

> we pay more than our fair share to employ the eu

> representatives and departments, therefore

> bringing the work in house and redeploying those

> resources here (no expense accounts for living in

> Brussels...) will represent a saving to the UK

> plus safeguard their jobs

>

> Sorry but I am finding your argument on this point

> weak and lacking in vision.

Sorry, but going for Brexit to ensure we pay over the odds for stuff just doesn't seem a really good idea.

You can dress it up as a saving, but it's not - simple logic shows that. Trying to say "We don't to pay more than our 1/28th share, so we'll pay the whole cost instead" just doesn't make sense.

You can try and dress it up as 'safeguarding jobs' but it's not that either. (Brussels jobs are unsafe? Who knew?!?).

It's just saying "UK good. EU Bad" without any semblance of logic to back that argument.

[????]

Loz it's an insignificance in real terms (you are talking very low actual number ofjobs) plus

- I expect they cost more in Brussels

- the cost isn't shared 1/28th

- there will be some duplication

But in the grand scheme of things it it's a minimal point to the big picture

[Loz]

Maybe, maybe not. But it does show up the Brexit fallacy that we'll suddenly be ?8.5bn better off. That money (and probably more) will be spent.

[LondonMix]

The fallacy about the 8.5B is that Switzerland et al have to pay for access to the free trade market. If the UK want to maintain free trade with the EU, a substantial portion of that 8.5b will still be sent to the EU.

However 8.5B is about 0.3% of UK GDP. Such a major political issue shouldn't really be made on such marginal sums.

At the end of the day, this is really a vote about political identity. Does the UK see its future with Europe or on its own and why?

I've not met anyone on either side of the issue who seems likely to be persuaded purely by the numbers being tossed around on both sides.

[miga]

I think it's even simpler. The voting public is conservative. In - the public knows the score. Out - the great unknown.

[Seabag]

miga Wrote:

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> I think it's even simpler. The voting public is

> conservative. In - the public knows the score. Out

> - the great unknown.

Indeed, and either option has a sack of statistics to back up their argument

However, nobody really trusts the tsunami of stats, so we go mostly on our instincts

Hence ultimately, the decision will be based on emotion and gut instinct. So expect fear, love, loss and abandonment over the next 70 odd days

[TheArtfulDogger]

Three answers in one post

Seabag - me an odd bod, can you seriously say that from the botley of your heart ? But don't walk by the Britexit Arms, come in, have a pint of our house bitter "weasel" and roll your sleeves up for a fight, go wan you know you want to...

Loz - sorry, I did't mention saving ?8.5 billion, in mearly pointed out that by reducing overheads of duplication your argument for needing to create new uk departments or quangos didn't hold water as those roles were already here in one form or the other.

Londonmix - we import far more from Europe than we export to it, maybe we should charge them to trade with us otherwise we can increase our use of non eu trading partners from 60% of our sales to a higher percentage of sales outside the EU

However Londonmix, you are so correct, people are either for or against the EU and numbers alone won't sway them, but cold hard facts will and so far neither side is producing any of real substance.

Rolls up sleeves, puts pint of extra strong beer down and prepares for the afternoons arm wrestling contest with mr Seabag...

[malumbu]

I'm one of the many who will vote one way or another irrespective of the debate.

I have lived and breathed Europe for most of my adult life. I dip in occasionally to threads and debates to skim the more intellectual argument and get an appreciation of the plain daft.

I've not seen anyone talk about distrusting Jonny foreigner. Beyond concerns over immigration.

I feel more in common with many of the Europeans that I work with, deal with professionally and just bump into in leisrure than some in this country including a few in what I would hope to be one of the more enlightened parts.

Clearly I tend to mix with Europeans broadly in my same socio economic group and I am sure that there are many that I would have nothing in common with. I almost feel like apologising for some of the small minded, outdated and isolationist views of some from our bit of the British Isles. Dowtnon Abbey is a work of fiction by the way, it was not a eutopia between before the first world war and between the wars and even if it was we could never recreate this.

So I like being in Europe

vs I don't like Europeans and I truly believe in Julain Fellows view of Blighty.

(And this is not a US love the flag of leave it conversation, I am happy to be here warts and all)

[TheArtfulDogger]

Taken from the Giles annual 2003

I wonder how many of us will want to do the same after the results are in ?

 

[Seabag]

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

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> Taken from the Giles annual 2003

>

> I wonder how many of us will want to do the same

> after the results are in ?

>

>

Dogger

You need to stop talking in your head, and put down a coherent post

Blimey man, you're making Fox look like Paxman