Voting to remain

[malumbu]

pourquoi sommes-nous si ?troit d'esprit?

In honour of the 9 other people I went skiing with who wouldn't utter a word of French, but were quite happy to complain about them

Malumbu "Pourquoi pensez- vous partez en vacances en France?"

PS don't take me on in French, I am embarassingly poor but I do try.

[Blah Blah]

I think the point about gut instinct over stats is correct. Economically it makes no sense to leave the EU because the tarriffs we would have to pay on those ?200bn of exports would outweight wahhat we pay to the EU now by a mile.

So then it comes to sovereignty, even though EU regualtions on impinge on 6% of our laws.

My experience is that those who are definitely in, have better understanding of how the EU works and it's benefits. Those who are definitely out see immigration as the core issue.

And then there are all the undecideds, many of whom are fed up with the bickering from both sides.

But I do think, as someone pointed out above, that UK conservatism will see many undecideds on the day stick with what we have, rather than risk veturing into the unknown. I expect the result to be to stay in - but only just - which means the issue will not go away sadly.

Love your 'Brexit Arms' analogy Seabag btw.

[peckham_ryu]

Is it true that the price of croissants, ciabatta, olives and chorizo will go up massively if we all vote "leave"? I don't want to live in a world where my only meal choices are British. But if there's a way of keeping prices the same, and moving off to a free trade area with cool countries like Canada and New Zealand, I'd like to have my brioche and eat it please.

[Jules-and-Boo]

do we import croissants? oh my days!

[TheArtfulDogger]

Seabag Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Taken from the Giles annual 2003

> >

> > I wonder how many of us will want to do the

> same

> > after the results are in ?

> >

> >

>

> Dogger

>

> You need to stop talking in your head, and put

> down a coherent post

>

> Blimey man, you're making Fox look like Paxman

Dearest Seabag

It's interesting that you are trying to paint those with an opposing view to yours as odd bods or mad in the head, obviously the result of a weak argument on your side as you are belittling others rather than stating real facts to support your point of view.

Very weak and ineffective sir 🤓

[malumbu]

peckham_ryu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Is it true that the price of croissants, ciabatta,

> olives and chorizo will go up massively if we all

> vote "leave"? I don't want to live in a world

> where my only meal choices are British. But if

> there's a way of keeping prices the same, and

> moving off to a free trade area with cool

> countries like Canada and New Zealand, I'd like to

> have my brioche and eat it please.

I've been to New Zealand. Very pretty but boring

And West Coast of Canada. Very pretty but boring.

And the two countries are are often sited as doing wonderfully well trading with EU but not part of it.

Norway and Switzerland.

Guess what? Yes, very pretty but boring.

[maxxi]

peckham_ryu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Is it true that the price of croissants, ciabatta,

> olives and chorizo will go up massively if we all

> vote "leave"?

Yes but we won't have to call black pudding boo don wah and we can have dripping on toast for tea instead of bruschetta - although we will all now have to drink wine out of cups with handles (first in a raft of new crazy non-EU directives).

[Gaynor Hill]

I am out listened to the business people (not the big boys) they want out IMF gets it wrong they wanted us in the Euro.

It's destroyed our farmers and fishermen I from the country side and so sad to see dairy farms go under

I buy as much British as possible

To me it's like a bad marriage one wants out the other does not

[TheArtfulDogger]

I was watching BBC breakfast news this morning reporting from a plastic factory in Northern Ireland and the fact they want to continue to trade with Southern Ireland.

Strikes me as there is a win win option for Brit exit and Ireland. If Southern Ireland agreed to zero levies for imports into the EU from Northern Ireland and England then we could continue to trade with the whole of Europe via sunbsidary companies in Southern Ireland, we wouldn't have to pay levies to countries across the EU as the goods would be in the EU already via Eire and it would generate jobs and economic stability for Southern Ireland.

Just a thought, maybe naive but it could remove one of the bigger fears of Brit exit that we would not be able to trade with Europe without increased levies. Of course someone in Brussels will kick back against it no doubt and someone one here will poo-poo the idea but thought it was worth discussing.

[Otta]

Seabag Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Here's how I mentally picture the whole thing

>

> In my head, I've created "The Brexit Arms" public

> house

>

> Behind the bar is BoJo and Wassis face Farage,

> pulling British pints and 'hurrahing' as they do

> so

>

> It's full of fag smoke, they sell pies and it's

> populated by the likes of Foxy, Louisa and now

> Dogger along with many more of the Forum odd bods.

> A bit like the Wishing Well in Bellenden road

> used to be

>

> So I ask myself, do I want to go in or just walk

> on by

>

> Simple answer, NO

>

>

>

> *Feel free to PM me your Forum odd bod, I'll edit

> the clientele of TBA accordingly*

Oh dear, I think I'd rather enjoy The Brexit Arms (is it based on Fox's on Kirkdale?), but I don't want to be in there.

Perhaps I could just pop in when I wanted a smoke, whilst leaving my coat and drink with my pals next door in The In Inn, where they do a fine all day continental breakfast, and a wonderful selection of European beers and wines.

[uncleglen]

Romania has been kicked out of the Eurovision Song Contest because it owes the European Broadcasting Union 16M Swiss francs in fees.....reason enough in itself to exit

[danielson00]

The European Broadcasting Union has NOTHING to do with the EU.

[uncleglen]

You think- it is subjected to the supranational regulations and rules though....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Broadcasting_Union

[Blah Blah]

Nope, it has nothing to do with the EU uncle. That's why it is called the Eurovision Song Contest and not the European Union Contest. The clue is in that Russia enters along with any other contry from the entire continent of Europe who wants to enter. So NOTHING whatsoever to do with the EU.

[Loz]

You confused the European Union with the European Broadcasting Union, uncleglen?

http://rs671.pbsrc.com/albums/vv71/mycircleoflife/Rofl.gif~c200

[malumbu]

I know that East Dulwich is devoid of pubs but why chose the Fox (and Hounds)

When I lived off Kirkdate many moons ago we had a cluster of nice pubs - the (Old) Greyhound, the Fox and Hounds, the Woodman that has morphed into an estate agents, the Bricklayers. Two have gone, the Fox is just very generic, last time I went into the Brick it was an almost empty fighting pub. We then had the two crim's pubs on Wells Park (both gone) before going up the hill to the Dulwich Woodhouse (RIP).

You'll have to go to the Dolphin at the bottom, or the pop up bar near by, for a decent atmosphere.

Clearly nothing to do with Brexit but as you lot are discussing the Eurovision Song Contest then I thnk that I can digress too.

[Otta]

Never liked the Dolphin, it's like having a beer in a starbucks. I used to quite like The Talma, which I assume was one of your crim's pubs. Was gutted the Woodman went, and only started using Fox's (which is just called Fox's now) after that.

Don't use any of them now as I live in Peng?. Late Knights FINALLY seem to be doing something with the Alexandra, which I am very excited about.

[TheArtfulDogger]

I love the bully boy tactics that have occurred this week, and the attached image from Saturday's telegraph says it all...

 

[Otta]

I have always been, and remain, a big fan of Obama. But I do think he overstepped the mark this week.

Although I suspect he's being truthful when he says a UK / USA Trade agreement wouldn't happen over night.

[Blah Blah]

I think Cameron is only too happy to use Obama to back the 'in' campaign. Obama has to act in the interests of the US, that goes with the job of president (or any government for that matter). Obama is also right in that trade agreements take a long time to negotiate - that's just the reality for any country. But he made a very good point which should be taken on board by those so keen on Brexit. A trade deal with the EU opens doors to a market of 500 million plus people. A trade deal with the UK is just 60 million people. That alone should tell people that we are not special, nor more important than our neighbours. In business, there are no special people, just consumers and profit. The EU will always have the upper hand on any trade negotiations.

[Jah Lush]

A friend of mine posted this tonight on FB. Not his words but something he agrees with. I've not made up my mind yet but I found this post interesting. I've always thought Ted Heath sold us down the river back in '73 and this makes a persuasive argument for us to get the hell out. Let me know what you think.

This lady sums things up very well...

I, probably like most of my generation, knew very little about the EU. I had done a Masters degree in the 70s; brought up my family, and by the early 2000s was ready to return to University. I was privileged to return to University to complete a Second Masters Degree; this time in European Policy, European Law and European Economic Analysis. Words cannot describe the horror I felt as I delved into the truth of the EU. Sends shivers down my spine to this day, remembering the horror of the realisation, that we had been hoodwinked into the EU by deceitful, disingenuous, intentionally devious means. The populace of the UK was never intended to find out the truth behind the EU, until they reckoned it was too late. Truth is it almost....almost...almost is too late. We already are, in the UK, all but a federal state in the United States of Europe. You never quite realised that, did you? Why? Because they very deliberately decided not to tell you! They deliberately created a political elite who knew full well that power was being ceded, systematically, Treaty by Treaty, to the EU. But who knew? They did! But were we the UK populace ever informed? Absolutely not! Why? They made mega millions from EU scammery & we the minions were shafted day, daily, monthly, yearly & forever. Where did your pensions go? Where did your schools, your NHS, your housing, your social services go? Well, ?55 million per day, every day, every week, every month, every year..... Guess what? That is why UK is bankrupted for generations to come, with a ?1.5 trillion pound debt. I wish I could enlighten the populace of the UK to the real truth about the EU. I spent a year studying the EU in depth, visiting both the EU Parliament and EU Commission in Brussels. Every word I heard in lectures, hundreds of hours of lectures, every word I researched for my thesis and every thing I saw in Brussels, lead me to the inescapable conclusion that the EU is an utterly corrupt, profligate, political monstrosity which has destroyed British jobs and bankrupted the UK for generations to come. The EU operates on lobbying, which is the technical term for bribery and corruption. Whatever Cameron says, EU law has supremacy over our UK law unless there is Treaty change. He may say so but the truth is that 27 other countries will never agree, this side of eternity, to change the Treaties.

So ?..what is the connection between the EU, the Bilderberg Group and the almost completed TTIP? (Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership)

The Bilderberg Group meet in secret each year and they are a group of phenomenally wealthy men and women from the worlds of big business, banking and politics, coming from across Europe and the US.

The TTIP represents an integral component of Bilderberg?s attempt to rescue the unipolar world (New World Order) by creating a ?world company,? initially a free trade area, which would connect the United States with Europe. Just as the European Union started as a mere free trade area and was eventually transformed into a political federation which controls upwards of 50 per cent of its member states? laws and regulations with total contempt for national sovereignty and democracy, TTIP is designed to accomplish the same goal, only on a bigger scale.

The treaty is likely to advantage the corporations of both the US and the EU, while disadvantaging their people. It presents a danger to democracy and public protection throughout the trading area.

The Bilderberg Group are focussing on how to derail a global political awakening that threatens to hinder Bilderberg?s long standing agenda to centralize power into a one world political federation, a goal set to be advanced with the passage of the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership (TTIP),

Bilderberg globalists are aghast and there is panic in the ranks that their planned EU superstate is being eroded as a result of a populist resistance all around Europe, mainly centred around animosity towards uncontrolled immigration policies.

And just who might we expect to find at such a secret gathering? Angela Merkel, Herman Van Rompuy (ex President of EU Council), Jean Claude Juncker, (Present President of the EU Commission), Martin Schultz,( Present President of EU Parliament), David Cameron, George Osbourne, Tony Blair, Ed Balls, Rona Fairhead, (Chair of the BBC Trust), Michael O?Leary of RyanAir, Stuart Rose (ex M & S, and BSE Chairman), Bill Clinton, Barak Obama???..?and many more. What do they all have in common? They are all trying to persuade you to stay in the EU. Why? Because it is in their warped self interest to do so! Is any of this in your interests? Absolutely not! Their modus operandi is that truth becomes lies and lies become truth. Sound familiar?

No possible option available, other than to get Out of EU ASAP. Vote Leave!

[Blah Blah]

Where to begin with that Jah? I never go for irrelevant emotional filler and that post is so devoid of any actual facts that it's hard to know where to start.

The cost of membership is a fraction of our GDP, and is paid back in spades, both in grants and in the ?200bn exports that membership of the EU enables us to sell. Up to three millions jobs exist because of that membership. So economically it's a pretty good payback.

Our deficit is a simple case of services costing more than we collect in tax. The EU is not the reason the UK has, like many countries, seen a decline since the 60's. Competition from countries that can undercut our labour and production costs are the reason why. The EU does not tells us what to pay workers. Nor does it tell us what we can charge for something.

As for bankruptcy. WW1 and 2 did far more to bring us to bankruptcy and we had much bigger debt then as a result. And then there was that global banking collapse of 2008 that had it's touch paper lit in the USA. Again, don't see the EU being responsible for that. Although the Tories would have us all believe it was Gordon what did it!

Debt and deficit are the consequence of the way modern banking does business. It is not something created by the EU.

As for law. The EU only affects around 6% of our laws through it's directives. Hardly taking over our sovereignty at all. We are not part of the Euro, nor Shenghan. We have had the ability to shape treaties in our interest in the past, and that will continue.

I have no time for conspiracy theories of new world orders. TTIP is just a trade treaty, a flawed one yes, but just a treaty all the same. Of course the USA acts out of self interest - tell me any country that doesn't. That's why trade agreements are so difficult to negotiate and take so long to come to an agreement on. But as always is the case with business, those with the biggest markets to offer, always have the edge. This is why the brexit claim that we would have no trouble renegotiating the 53 trade agreements we have with the EU is a fantasy. The EU is a marketplace of 500 million consumers. We are just 63 million. We are not special and we will have to pay just like everyone else who wants access to the EU marketplace whether we stay OR leave. Both Obama and Clinton have said there will be no trade deal with them if we leave the EU. They don't need us or our exports. The days of the British Empire have long gone and it's time we woke up to that.

And the post ends by telling us that it's not in our (the people's) interests to stay in the EU.

Here is an excerpt of something I wrote on another thread;

"So they EU are shafting working people are they? Workers have the following protections because of the EU;

Health and safety at work: general rights and obligations, workplaces, work equipment, specific risks and vulnerable workers.

Equal opportunities for women and men: equal treatment at work, pregnancy, maternity leave, parental leave protection against discrimination based on sex, race, religion, age, disability and sexual orientation.

Labour law: part-time work, fixed-term contracts, working hours, employment of young people, informing and consulting employees.

Individual EU countries must make sure that their national laws protect these rights laid down by EU employment laws (Directives).

And then of course there's the people kept in jobs by the ?200bn of exports to the EU annual.

Yeah right, whatever has the EU ever done for working people."

My issue with the out campaign all along has been the lack of opinion based on hard facts. The EU is far more complex than TTIP or its membership fees. Yet those wanting to leave can't say how we'll protect those jobs, exports and workplace protections. The truth is they just don't know. I for one am not prepared to vote for something that will at the very least create economic uncertainty, at a time when the economy is flatlining and the world's markets are pretty volatile. So I'm saying vote in, and we can work to reform the things that don't work.

[????]

Blah - you bang on about the export thing continually as if exports would collapse go if we left. They wouldn't and as we are in trade defeceit with the EU we are actually more important to them than us, it's a red herring and a false argument as much as the Brexit stuff is. So if you are going to lecture on opinion vs facts you need to be more honest about the pro case. Race and sexual discrimination acts were passed by UK governments they are not just there because of the EU.

[Loz]

If we vote for Brexit, I guarantee you that the UK will still sign up for TTIP. Which rather nullifies everything in Jah's post.

[Otta]

The TTIP is something that I wish I fully understood, but which worries me.

But as Loz says, the powers that be seem hell bent on it whatever happens.