Voting to remain

[Louisa]

Public services at breaking point, cuts all over the shop, and Cameron justifies ?9mil of public funds on a propaganda campaign to encourage the status quo with Europe. Disgraceful.

Louisa.

[Louisa]

Alex K Wrote:

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> "I am a lover of freedom of destiny".

>

> Well, Louisa, how does one manage that -- with

> destiny being a you-can't-change-it

> you-can't-evade-it fate?

>

> "Freedom of destiny". Even for the EDF, that is

> extraordinary piffle.

That is exactly my point! Why should we be stuck in a managed structure, because it's safe? Because it's 'secure'? It's a bizarre philosophy. A 'leap in the dark' would mean we would have a completely different and refreshed perspective on survival as a sovereign state.

Louisa.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Louisa Wrote:

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> Public services at breaking point, cuts all over

> the shop, and Cameron justifies ?9mil of public

> funds on a propaganda campaign to encourage the

> status quo with Europe. Disgraceful.

>

> Louisa.

I agree it's pretty poor that taxpayers money is being used to promote one side of a political debate in this way.

[maxxi]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> I have heard so many Brexiters with completely

> different (and contradictory) visions of what

> 'out' would mean for the UK. This for me is a big

> problem.

It's part of the attraction for some.

I remember some 'Yes' voters in the Scots referendum rejecting the scare stories and the 'fear of the unknown' because they had, in their minds, little or nothing to lose regardless of what changes occurred. They had no comfortable well-paid jobs, were not on the property ladder and saw no prospect of things improving but were surrounded by others who were happy with the status quo telling them not to rock the boat.

The real problem with the 'out' campaign is that it lacks a charismatic and credible leader (if it did have then the assorted fringe nutters and closet fascists clinging to the campaign wouldn't count so much). It doesn't matter that the 'in' campaign doesn't have one either as they are only advocating 'do nowt' so will probably swing the argument.

When in doubt. Do nowt.

[Michael Palaeologus]

The Government is not neutral in this, they have a position and the reasons why should be communicated to the public.There are 60 million of us, so 9 million quid seems a bargain and less than the cost of a first class stamp.

The Brexit campaign have ample opportunity to make their case, or cases, there seem to be a melange.

[Bob Buzzard]

I can't wait to receive the Government leaflet so I can put it in the recycling. Somebody down the Gowlett told me there will be no more bubbles in champagne after Brexit.

[Blah Blah]

I can honestly say that I haven't heard a single good arguement for Brexit, backed by any hard facts.

[Seabag]

Lunch with the FT (weekend) interview with Nigel Farage

9/10th April edition.

Ha ha and bonkers, though no more bonkers than other people like him who are bonkers

He croaks wth laughter. 'I love Europe! France is wonderful.It should be, we subsidised it for 40 years'

[malumbu]

I am happy to put my leaflet in the bin and I didn't see any point in having a referendum in the first place. I am surprised that Dave felt that we needed the leaflet.

The Brexit camp including Lousisa and the NUFC person all come across as rabid.

The Panama papers are just a silly distraction and aren't anything to do with the argument.

I watched a bit of the repeat of questiontime last night http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b076zn7t and there was a brilliant view from Chris Bryant MP where through gritted teeth he supported the PM, saying that the Brexit campaign focused on process rather than substance and got a cheer from the audience. Thank ffign God for a bit or reality at last without political posturing.

Embrace the bigger picture. Don't resort to cheap under the belt and totally inaccurate comments about other Europeans. And please make an effort to speak their lingo when abroad. I am so embarassed by too many of my fellow countrypeople (as one who is not a great linguist, but tries).

In it and proud.

[Alex K]

"In it and proud" -- yes, absolutely.

[Louisa]

You're all crazy. Anyone who thinks we should remain comes up with the same old story. Rather than criticise the other side, why don't you try to convince us sceptics of the pro's of remaining? Not heard ONE convincing argument for us remaining. Not one, and I'm being serious here.

As for Chris Bryant, he got a cheer from a predominantly urban, guardianista audience - shock of the century. The polls are far more interesting, with all regions apart from London and Scotland being marginally in favour of brexit, but who cares what they think? As long as a handful of Notting Hill/Islington elitists get what they want?

Louisa.

[Loz]

malumbu Wrote:

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> I watched a bit of the repeat of questiontime last night http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b076zn7t and

> there was a brilliant view from Chris Bryant MP where through gritted teeth he supported the PM,

> saying that the Brexit campaign focused on process rather than substance and got a cheer from the

> audience. Thank ffign God for a bit or reality at last without political posturing.

I'm glad someone from Labour has stood up. I think the biggest danger at the moment to the Remain campaign is the seemingly-paralysed state of Labour. Given the Tories are split and bickering on the matter, Labour should be shoring up their support, but we're hearing nary a peep from them.

On the subject of QT, that had to be the worst panel on the programme for a long time. Dreadful.

[Loz]

Louisa Wrote:

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> You're all crazy. Anyone who thinks we should remain comes up with the same old story. Rather

> than criticise the other side, why don't you try to convince us sceptics of the pro's of remaining?

> Not heard ONE convincing argument for us remaining. Not one, and I'm being serious here.

OK. Here's five.

1) Money. We won't actually save any money - in fact, leaving would probably cost us MORE money. The UK's net contribution is about ?8.5bn a year. But we will need to replace the functions of the EU. Even a small government department like the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills had a budget of over 16bn last year.

2) Repercussions. A lot of the arguments to leave assume the EU will want to stay on friendly terms and renegotiating stuff will be easy. But the EU will see Brexit as a massive danger to the European project and will almost certainly want to give us a very hard time to discourage other potential exiteers. Which leads us to...

3) Trade. The EU is a single market in which no tariffs are imposed on imports and exports between member states. If we leave we might be able to negotiate something similar, but there are zero guarantees on this (especially of the EU want to make an example of us). This includes services, which is a huge part of our exports and not covered by many other trade agreements.

4) Financial Sector. London's position as the premier European financial centre would be in serous danger if it not part of Europe. Frankfurt is already preparing plans to attract London's financial institutions should Brexit arise. Finance is over 20% of our GDP. The knock on effect on jobs, trade and GDP could be immense.

5) Confusion. Leaving would leave us in a state of limbo for a number of years. The best estimates for disentangling UK from the EU say about two to three years. It will be longer. In that time we won't be in, but we won't be out either, leaving us in a position of complete uncertainty.

[KrackersMaracas]

Thank you Loz! Right behind you.

[Earl Aelfheah]

Just received the governments 'vote to stay' leaflet. Whilst I think it's pretty rum that they've sunk taxpayers money into promoting only one side of the arguenent, I have to admit it's a pretty decent bit of propaganda.

[uncleglen]

Just because it's more convenient in the short term doesn't mean we should stay in what is not much less than a bloody lefty gravy-train dictatorship...

I voted NO to the EEC... it was the first time I was allowed to vote...there was a promise that all of Europe would be driving around in British made cars (ha ha ha)...2 years ago the Ford transit van plant was closed in Southampton and moved to Turkey so obviously it matters not if we are in or out, business will move to where it is cheap.

As for the finance being moved to Frankfurt, they were talking about that years ago even before BREXIT was mentioned- so that's another smoke screen.

As for the dept of Business Innovation and Skills....waste of time obviously (just another layer upon layer of suits and bureaucracy creating more paper mountains in Brussels) when the UK is full of foreign businesses, innovators and skilled people- NOTHING is actually being done to improve the future and prospects of our young people- in fact it is quite the opposite...

[Earl Aelfheah]

I'm currently intending to vote in, but must admit to feeling fairly ambivalent about the whole thing.

[DulwichFox]

I'm happy for the 'Stay In' brigade to put their ballot papers in the bin...

It has already been suggested that the people who want change 'Brexit' are more likely to cast their vote.

DulwichFox

[TheArtfulDogger]

Is that a vote to stay in then uncleglen... It isn't quite clear from your post

[Earl Aelfheah]

I'm pretty sure Uncleglen is a closet communist.

[titch juicy]

uncleglen Wrote:

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"> I voted NO to the EEC... it was the first time I

> was allowed to vote...there was a promise that all

> of Europe would be driving around in British made

> cars (ha ha ha)...2 years ago the Ford transit van

> plant was closed in Southampton and moved to

> Turkey so obviously it matters not if we are in or

> out, business will move to where it is cheap."

UK Car Manufacturing Hits a Ten Year High

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35368047

[titch juicy]

IMF: Brexit Could Cause Serious Damage

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-36024492

[Loz]

DulwichFox Wrote:

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> It has already been suggested that the people who want change 'Brexit' are more likely to cast their vote.

That's entirely possible. On the other hand, the large number of 'undecided' are usually more likely to stick with the status quo.

[TheArtfulDogger]

I have a question

With the official announcement of the in and out campaigns yesterday and the agreement on what they can spend (up to ?7million) does the governments ?9million mailshot count towards that or has the Britain stronger in Europe campaigne got an unfair advantage in that it has the mailshot plus the ability to spend up to another ?7 million ?

Very confused

[Blah Blah]

Lot's of people have given Louisa plenty of reasons to remain but she chooses to ignore them, but then what do you expect from someone who thinks only 200,000 jobs rely on exports to the EU. Louisa, like most Brexit supporters, isn't speaking from a place of much, if any, accurate understanding or knowledge of the EU.

I also don't accept that Brexiters are more likely to be motivated to vote either. I know plenty of in voters who are voting to make sure the Brexiters don't win.