Voting to remain

[LadyNorwood]

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

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> Love the analogy ladyNorwood and possibly too

> accurate to be wrong...

>

> Is it just me or does the ONS figure of 330.000

> increase in net immigration seem a bit unreal and

> low or am I just a synical old dog and not

> trusting a word the government and their

> mouthpieces say at the moment?

This was in the Telegraph last week - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/12/the-gap-between-official-migrant-figures-and-the-truth-is-as-wid/

[Loz]

LadyNorwood Wrote:

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> This was in the Telegraph last week -

> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/12/the-gap-between-official-migrant-figures-and-the-truth-is-as-wid/

Bit of a deceitful article, that one. Would you really count someone who was here for less than a year as an immigrant?

I went to Austria to work for two winters, went through the whole rigmarole of the Austrian equivalent of registering for NI, etc, and after my time came back to the UK. I'd hardly class myself of ever 'migrating to Austria'.

[Blah Blah]

I think there's always a grey area on migration figures of all types. It's hard to acurately track movement, because it always moves. People go where there are jobs, and that includes internally too. We should never demonise people for that, but we do need to understand trends and have a sensible strategy for management.

Personally, I get frustrated at people who want brexit just to stop EU migration, because I don't think they have a full understanding of the benefits for commerce of that. Shengen came about because before that, lorries would have to queue for hours and sometimes days at EVERY border to transport goods. And businesses who were struggling to recruit internally couldn't get the skills and labour they needed to grow. When Germany told Syrian refugees to come to Germany, they did so because there are parts of Germany with full employment and local businesses is struggling to expand in those areas.

I think that the real problem is not about the EU, or Shengen etc. It's the move to the free market economy. When you privatise everything, you hand responsibility to an entitiy that doesn't care about infrastructure, health, housing etc. When people move, they don't just become parasites to the exisiting economy. They work, generate demand and create side economic demand. It all feeds each other. Where government has let us all down is in devolving itself of infrastructure investment and strategic planning. That's why we have pressures on housing, schools, hopsitals, resources etc. And if we stopped immigration tm, that poor management wouldn't change.

[root]

Blah Blah Wrote:

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...

> I think that the real problem is not about the EU,

> or Shengen etc. It's the move to the free market

> economy. When you privatise everything, you hand

> responsibility to an entitiy that doesn't care

> about infrastructure, health, housing etc. When

...

Which is one reason why you need supranational regulations on areas such as human rights, product safety, competition, and above all the environment.

UKIP in particular are obsessed about bringing an end to any non planet destroying initiative.

[TheArtfulDogger]

Looking at what is going on in France with the strikes and industrial unrest I have to ask myself do I really want to be a part of an Europe that reminds me of the 1970s and the film carry on up your convienince ?

Nope and as the foreman says "everyone out" 😀

[Earl Aelfheah]

Blah Blah is right. The problem is that neo-liberalism has lost sight of what an economy is for... who it is meant to serve and this is where a lot of the disenfranchisement and anti-establishment feeling comes from. The problem is, it's incredibly misdirected in my opinion.

The idea that we should completely deregulate and allow a small number of wealthy individuals free reign, is surely discredited by now? Letting people with money and power make their own rules and thinking that they'll create wealth for everyone is nonsense. What happens, as we have seen, is that they'll enrich themselves further at the expense of society.

It's the working classes who have lost out as a result of market deregulation and the wierdest thing in all this is that many have now formed an unholy alliance with the very people responsible. In my opinion the Brexiteers don't really want less immigration, just immigration from further abroad, where people can be brought in even cheaper. We vote out and Gove, Boris, Farage et al, will usher in more neo-con economic policies, less regulation, lower wages and more inequality.

[root]

TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

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> Looking at what is going on in France with the

> strikes and industrial unrest I have to ask myself

> do I really want to be a part of an Europe that

> reminds me of the 1970s and the film carry on up

> your convienince ?

>

> Nope and as the foreman says "everyone out"

> 😀

Do you feel the same way about the NHS strikes?

[Louisa]

What amazes me about the "in" camp, is numerous individuals (supported by comments above) seem to talk up the positives such as free movement of people and consequently the labour market, and at the very same time are moaning about a shortage of supply in the housing market. The working class people you claim this Union has helped, cannot get on the housing ladder and are at their wits end struggling to make ends meat. Their perception is that open borders will exacerbate the already strained housing and infrastructure of this country, and yet the 'in' people consistently tell us how talking about immigration is terrible. These people aren't being racist, they're just scared that their kids won't be able to get jobs or housing when they grow up, and by leaving the EU they assume many of these issues will in time become less problematic for them.

Louisa.

[Louisa]

Ps, am I the only who cheered when the 'in' tried to scare everyone by talking about a drop in house prices of upto 20%? Rather than say it's rubbish, I would say let it happen! Maybe we can finally let everyone have a slice of this overpriced pie, especially here in London. I find it horrifying walking up past some of the very smart well looked after houses on Woodwarde RD etc and seeing "Labour for IN" signs in people's windows. The Guardianista London centric tribe of the Labour Party once again dictating to the poor working people what they should do in this referendum, when they're already say nice and comfy thanks very much.

Louisa.

[Earl Aelfheah]

The out camp are using immigration as a convenient cloak for what they really want. Less regulation, fewer employment protections and lower taxes. If we vote for Brexit, it won't make it easier for people to get on the housing ladder. It won't mean wages go up, or there is a more equal distribution of wealth. I don't buy it. Look at the people who are trying to sell the idea and ask where their interests really lie.

[TheArtfulDogger]

root Wrote:

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> TheArtfulDogger Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Looking at what is going on in France with the

> > strikes and industrial unrest I have to ask

> myself

> > do I really want to be a part of an Europe that

> > reminds me of the 1970s and the film carry on

> up

> > your convienince ?

> >

> > Nope and as the foreman says "everyone out"

> > 😀

>

> Do you feel the same way about the NHS strikes?

Oui

Lol

But let's look at the root cause of the NHS strike, due to pressures on the NHS to treat all the people in the country with limited budgets that are reducing year on year whilst the population grows due to natural birth and immigration plus the free movement of people in Europe. The government are trying to get doctors to work longer hours to cope with the volumes of patients and change their contracts as a result. Conceptually by reducing the number of people who need healthcare in the UK even short term by restricting free movement and access to our health service to Europeans, then there is a chance that the NHS can take stock and be able to reorganise and plan for the growing population.

So whilst I understand both sides of the NHS argument, and sympathise with the Doctors, I can also see the root cause of why the government are trying to get them to work longer hours and change their contracts.

The difference between the UK doctors strike and the French is that the who.e of France seems to go out on strike when one area is effected whilst in the UK it is limited to the industry or area in question.

[Louisa]

Honestly rahrahrah, do you think Jeremy Corbyn and the far left of the Labour movement are pro-EU? Just because the people at the top of the public campaign for 'out' are former businessmen etc doesn't mean the entire campaign is dominated by them. Most sensible people who want us out of the EU are doing so because we care about the future of this country and by controlling the borders in one way or another we will be able to naturally create a rebalance in the demand/supply chain of the housing/labour market. BUT, only if that is done by the right people. Not only by said business interests you mention.

Louisa.

[Blah Blah]

But there lies the problem Louisa. The type of people that govern us will not change if we leave. And Piri Patel gave a speech last week to business leaders in which she said brexit would allow them to do away with some employment protections to free up business. So the argument for Brexit by those who will govern through it is completely about pushing more power into the hands of business and away from ordinary people.

And if you go out of the South-east, you don't see pressures on supply of housing etc, but you do see high unemployment. We often look at the south-east and think it's a mirror for the entire UK. It's not. That's worth remembering too.

[Louisa]

Yes that is of course a problem Blah, I concede that side of the argument to you of course. But, we surely have to start somewhere, looking at it from a left of centre 'Brexit' point of view.

Louisa.

[TheCat]

Following the BBC's 'Young people' debate last night....it strikes me that a number of the 'young people' specials which I've seen from various news services seem to show that a major concern for 'young people' is their ability to easily travel (and perhaps work) across Europe? Perhaps its just how the story's have been shown and the individuals that the news services have spoken with; but surely its a joke that the ability to go on a visa free holiday to Europe is a key driver of people's thought process on this when there are the issues of public services and the economy at stake?

Travelers from Australia, NZ and the USA seem to manage quite well to travel to Europe...

[root]

TheCat Wrote:

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> Following the BBC's 'Young people' debate last

> night....it strikes me that a number of the 'young

> people' specials which I've seen from various news

> services seem to show that a major concern for

> 'young people' is their ability to easily travel

> (and perhaps work) across Europe? Perhaps its just

> how the story's have been shown and the

> individuals that the news services have spoken

> with; but surely its a joke that the ability to go

> on a visa free holiday to Europe is a key driver

> of people's thought process on this when there are

> the issues of public services and the economy at

> stake?

>

> Travelers from Australia, NZ and the USA seem to

> manage quite well to travel to Europe...

I work for a high tech company where we probably have more English born people working on the continent than Continentals such as myself working in the UK. We're a bit of a fluke though as we're a very specific technology and generally speaking the UK does a good job at stealing talent from Europe and than pats itself on the back on how awesome the English are.

[TheCat]

root Wrote:

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> TheCat Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Following the BBC's 'Young people' debate last

> > night....it strikes me that a number of the

> 'young

> > people' specials which I've seen from various

> news

> > services seem to show that a major concern for

> > 'young people' is their ability to easily

> travel

> > (and perhaps work) across Europe? Perhaps its

> just

> > how the story's have been shown and the

> > individuals that the news services have spoken

> > with; but surely its a joke that the ability to

> go

> > on a visa free holiday to Europe is a key

> driver

> > of people's thought process on this when there

> are

> > the issues of public services and the economy

> at

> > stake?

> >

> > Travelers from Australia, NZ and the USA seem

> to

> > manage quite well to travel to Europe...

>

>

> I work for a high tech company where we probably

> have more English born people working on the

> continent than Continentals such as myself working

> in the UK. We're a bit of a fluke though as we're

> a very specific technology and generally speaking

> the UK does a good job at stealing talent from

> Europe and than pats itself on the back on how

> awesome the English are.

Yeah, fair enough. But I also think that as with most counties in the world, if a business can make a case for the skills that they need to grow/succeed, then sponsorship or work visas usually arent a problem

[Earl Aelfheah]

Unfortunately a lot of the young people registered to vote at their student residence will be on break (or not registered at all) and many more at Glastonbury

[Earl Aelfheah]

Louisa Wrote:

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> Honestly rahrahrah, do you think Jeremy Corbyn and

> the far left of the Labour movement are pro-EU?

> Just because the people at the top of the public

> campaign for 'out' are former businessmen etc

> doesn't mean the entire campaign is dominated by

> them. Most sensible people who want us out of the

> EU are doing so because we care about the future

> of this country and by controlling the borders in

> one way or another we will be able to naturally

> create a rebalance in the demand/supply chain of

> the housing/labour market. BUT, only if that is

> done by the right people. Not only by said

> business interests you mention.

>

> Louisa.

I dont' think they're pro EU particularly, but then i didn't mention Corbyn or 'far left' (the communist party?). My point was that much of the dissatisfaction aimed at Europe is actually about neo-liberalism. I'm not sure that leaving the EU is going to deliver on many of the issues that those in favour of Brexit are thinking it will. IMO, their grievances are misdirected.

[Earl Aelfheah]

... and with those currently in government, if we do exit, they will use the opportunity to further deregulate, privatise and squeeze wages.

[BrandNewGuy]

Well, if they can't work out how to get a postal or proxy vote, then maybe writing a cross in a box might also prove too demanding.

[root]

TheCat Wrote:

...

> > a very specific technology and generally

> speaking

> > the UK does a good job at stealing talent from

> > Europe and than pats itself on the back on how

> > awesome the English are.

>

> Yeah, fair enough. But I also think that as with

> most counties in the world, if a business can make

> a case for the skills that they need to

> grow/succeed, then sponsorship or work visas

> usually arent a problem

So you don't want English kids to just be able jump on a train or a short flight for an interview and start a job in Munich, Madrid, Prague or Milan the following week? We have offices in just about every European country and for most meetings people just take a bus or a train.

[Huguenot]

Hi guys :)

Long time no speak!

Southwark have explained that I need to proxy vote to get my vote in - it seems like the postal votes won't be released until 13th June, and the likelihood of that going to get to me and back again before the deadline is low.

It's a big ask, with a lot of trust issues, but can one of you help me out on this?

PM me?

[steveo]

Hugenut!

[Beej]

steveo Wrote:

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> Hugenut!

lmao