My childs bad behaviour is because he/she is so bright. Discuss

[Pecanpie]

Is there any truth to it?

[mumra]

Well, from some experience working in schools I have observed that occasionally bright children are bored and can find work provided of a low challenge, therefore not engaging them in the learning process, which in turn means they look for other ways to challenge themselves- chatting to friends, doodling, challenging teacher etc. What age are you talking about pecan pie?

[Ann]

Exactly what is the nature of bad behaviour you're referring to?

[littleEDfamily]

I have often told myself this in moments of desperation...I think brighter kids can be more 'challenging', but I don't think intelligence can explain away 'proper' bad behaviour in most cases. What age are we talking about?

[siobhanleighhunt]

oh god I so need everyones thoughts on this! I am so desperate. My daughter turned two last week and at the moment every single thing is "martha do it! martha do it!". She insists upon doing everything for herself - changing her nappypants, every single item of clothing, opening doors, getting in and out of bed, coming down the stairs (our incredibly steep stairs); everything has to be done in a certain way to her comand regardless of how long it takes her to do it (and her capability of doing it) and its complete meltdown if it doesn't happen. And I mean...complete meltdown - I am the woman you feel sorry for in sainsburys!

Which would be fine I guess except I've also got a 10mth old to feed/change/ entertain ect!

I went to see a child psychologist a couple of weeks ago (excellent free drop in session peckham every couple of weeks; lovely psycholgist that was really helpful) I went not because i was concerned about my two year old but because i was concerned about how well I was dealing with the meltdowns/ was I saying the right things ect ect. After observing, psychologist told me i have an advanced 2 yr old who is also very stubbon. I'm open minded about the whole difficult behaviour/ intelligent thing. Where as I am as thick as a wooden blank but nice to talk to, my hubby is academically gifted but needs structured guidance about what he might be feeling emotionally. Thoughts and tips apreciciated. From what I've experiened its all about managing their expectations and telling them about what is going to ho happen before it does.

[Fuschia]

That two year old will turn into the sort of 7 year old I have!

[alice]

well ive worked with kids with emotional, behavioural difficulties for years - no link at all with brightness - sorry folks

[littleEDfamily]

There go my illusions shattered! Thanks Alice :-S

[womanofdulwich]

my son was also challenging when younger. we did not eat out or go on holiday other than to family or self catering for first 7 years. he was strong and independent. he is 14 now and very capable and has been for the last 3 years motivated,leadership skills good all rounder. His older brother was compliant and I had never smacked him- only threatened. youngest positively relished a smack so that was no good as a tactic. he loved a good set to, and wore me out- but we got there in the end and he is generally a lovely young man that I am proud of. But boy did he put me through it and mean I had to change my parenting pattern and challenge the way i had been raised. he started doing lots of physical things from early age- especially competitive sport which was really good wore him out. i played tennis with him, ball games, cycling, setting out obstacle courses in the garden etc just to wear him out. Team sports were not so good when he was younger but he loved one on one. I am sure this is not a difficulty as such, just a challenge compared to your expectations based on your experience to date. She will go far- much easier to see her as very clever and needing to be challenged than as a problem!!(tu)

[Pecanpie]

Sorry not to be clear, was having a bit of a vent! I am blessed with a very normal ability, normal behaviour child (generally good but far from perfect). I sometimes look after an officially challenging 5 year old, the childs parents think behaviour is due to 'bright child' issues, and i feel like sending in supernanny, your comments will give me more patience. Thanks

[womanofdulwich]

sorry i think my comments were to siobhamleighhunt not pecan pie. Nothing wrong with tiring them out to keep them quiet though!;-)

[Keef]

Personally I suspect that in some cases, very bright kids will act up. However, I susect that in more cases, parents will say things like "it's because he's just so bright", simply because it makes them feel better.

I have no proof of any of that, it is just my gut feeling.

[Fuschia]

My child is bright and he does act up, but it's not an excuse!

With the twins, one has the same wild/determined strak, the other is more "docile"

[Ondine]

Mine are older and bringing interesting new challenges every day. But a friend gave me a good way of looking at it - she reckons you have to find the right balance between structure and control (ie them having control) for the stage/age they are at. She has a very bright teenager who has got into some difficulties and she was reflecting that because he was always clearly so bright, she hadn't structured his life enough when he was younger, and this led to him feeling like an adult long before he was ready.

[helena handbasket]

When my son was three weeks old we went to an evening parenting class. All the other newborns were happily sleeping in their bucket car seats while ours grumped and fussed until we picked him up and held him facing the circle of parents so he could see what was going on. He stopped the show when he laughed out loud to a joke the instructor told. Three weeks old! It was surreal. We knew we were in trouble.

I obviously don't think he "got" the joke, but he had clear and strong opinions and a need to be involved at that young age, and it was the first sign that we had a child with a big personality and incredible intensity. While the other babies were lying on the floor admiring shiny things, mine dragged himself around the house at 5 months. At seven months he climbed up the wooden staircase. I'm saying this because I understand what it means to have a child that is so quick and sure, and also the demands on parents of these "more" children to think fast to stay one step ahead.

Have by no means cracked it, but have learned two really important things:

1. Pay people to keep them busy. These kids are incredibly exhausting, mentally and physically, and sending my son to pre-school three mornings a week allows me to take a deep breath let my guard down for a couple of hours. And he learns by watching the other children respond to boundaries. I was terrified of sending him there because I was sure he would be too much to handle, but it's been brilliant and not a single problem. Why? They are consistent! Which leads to my other important lesson....

2. Think Horton Hears a Who: "I meant what I said and I said what I meant".

Clear expectations. Clear consequences (with choices...... eg. "tidy up your toys or no painting" and then most importantly follow through! eg. "I said we would not paint if the toys were not picked up. They are not picked up so we won't be painting. Maybe we'll try again tomorrow." End of story.

The second I let my son think there is the slightest chance I might waver he plays on it. And he'll work it and work it until I think I literally will lose my mind and then he's got me and he's won. The "terrible twos " might as well have been called the "torture your poor mother with such fierce tantrums at the slightest disappointment until she loses the will to live" twos because he learned to use them, and he knew that they wore me down. So, I have to set the boundaries before it ever gets there, and then follow through. I think this is what they do at his school and why he has had no problems there. And Ondine you are so right, much better to learn these lessons young and grow with them than have them imposed much later and struggle to understand what is expected of you.

[siobhanleighhunt]

helena handbasket, thank you very much for that - we've started your approached very recently and you're right, it does seem to work. But I just struggle to obtain the headspace to think through whatever scenario is about to happen, and explain it through to Martha, and explain what is expected of her, whilst her baby sister screams in my ear about whatever toy she's had taken from her/ food that she currently demanding. As a shortcut I seem to be resorting to sanctions i.e. "if you don't do this after three seconds (or three minutes ect ect), then there will be no more of that" which seems wrong/ cruel and not appropriate for her age. But it seems to motivate her!... But maybe that approach will have consequences?

How old is yours now HH? LittleEDfamily has reassured me (thanks for your lovely pm lEDf!) that it gets better when they are 3.

Ondine, I am intrigued by your comment - its ringing alarm bells with me for some reason and so I am hoping you can elaborate on "him feeling like an adult long before he was ready". My daughter's quest for independence seems ruthless and to her own detriment at times although I'm inclined to just go with the flow of whatever she thinks she wants to do rather than confront and restrict all the time. How do you strike the balance in your experience?

womanofdulwich, thanks for sharing your positive story - I so hope mine turn out so well adjusted! Do you think that boys and girls developmental milestones are different? From what I've read boys and girls develop differently and boys run around like headless loons and girls just sit there and colour in for 5 years! I think at 2 Martha is physically average - she does run, likes dancing and she follows instruction well (touch your head, toes, nose ect ect) but shows no sign of being particulary physically bored as such. I can tell when she's periodically bored because she just goes around distructing things - pulling toys out from boxes, throwing things on the floor, generally making a pointless mess. But maybe I'm not wearing her out enough physically and thats why she's having these major hissy fits? mmm more i think about it and it seems thats what you are all telling me - physically wear them into the ground and they can't then kick up the fuss!

[Belle]

V useful HH - i have one a bit like that, though he's not much over 1yr- but good to know for the next year or so! Although with mine he's just hyper. My mum told me off because I joked that he has ADHD (she's a teacher so understandably didn't think was something to joke about) but sometimes I really think he does. Already with the tantrums if he can't have a whatever it is he's decided he wants (usually something awful like the toilet seat/inside of the bin/my cupcake/daddy's suit trousers...i never would have thought someone so young was capable of such fury.

[snowboarder]

Oh GOD if extreme stubbornness and persistence resembling that of a puppy are an indicator of trouble to come (well has been trouble since pre birth but hey)....I'm rapidly thinking I really need to become tough mummy now in order to cope with the years ahead. But it seems I'm not very good at it. BabySB has always been super alert but I'm only now beginning to see how determined he really is....help....

[helena handbasket]

I think it's so hard to tell with toddlers because they are mostly irrational anyway! My son is now 3 1/2 and the tantrums have mostly gone, but he still has an incredible temper when things don't go his way and we are working on that. It's worth pointing out that his school has never seen it, so clearly it is a dynamic that has been created within our family. I think the biggest issue with toddlers is to not get into bad habits, which is why my son has learned to put on a "show" for us. I was new to London (UK in fact), my husband was working so I was on my own for 12 hours a day with a toddler who was incredibly difficult and it was kind of a perfect storm...... I was stressed and homesick and he was too, and also reacting to my stress I assume. Sooooooo, it didn't take long for us to set up a bit of a dysfunctional dynamic. I needed to be much firmer with him didn't have the fight in me at the time.

A bit extreme, but I went to counselling for a bit and was a surprised to realize I have boundary issues, setting them and then enforcing them. A surprise to me, but it was completely true once I thought about it. This was actually what I need to know to improve my parenting because I realized that it's good and healthy to set a boundaries for children and following through. I no longer second guess myself, and my son is learning that if I say it I mean it, no more fighting and giving in. Everything I know about child development (did a degree in that many years ago) reminds me that children need to know what is expected so they can "get it right". My inability to express and uphold my expectations was zapping my son of his confidence and he was having terrifying tantrums as his only way to express his fear and frustration. With me.

My parents also believed that I was too clever for boundaries (hmmmm, and counselling showed me the long term effects, not good). What you always have to remember is that no matter how clever or independant a child is, the stages of development are quite static and you must still treat them as a child of the age they are. And all ages need to know what is expected of them to confidently know they are doing well. If you have ever had a job as an adult where you never really knew what you were supposed to be doing and always felt a bit like you were failing to meet the expectations of that job you will know what it feels like. Then imagine it's in your home.

Obviously I'm still learning, but we're getting there and turning three has made a huge difference. And learning that it is about us and not just him has helped so much because I am no longer afraid for his future. He's wonderful at school. So we muddle through and he's just such an amazing little guy, my hero really.

[Fuschia]

siobhanleighhunt Wrote: From what I've read boys

> and girls develop differently and boys run around

> like headless loons and girls just sit there and

> colour in for 5 years!

In our family twin II (girl) at 2yo is just like her older brother was... while twin I is much more peaceful and laid back... we do take them all out to run round like puppies as often as possible... we're used to having a boy!

[sillywoman]

helena handbasket Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> If you have ever had a job

> as an adult where you never really knew what you

> were supposed to be doing and always felt a bit

> like you were failing to meet the expectations of

> that job you will know what it feels like.

>

> Isn't that called parenthood?!

[Ondine]

well....heavy stuff for this board but I have 2 friends with teen boys who have in the past year got into depression and self harm - one attempted suicide a number of times. And both the mums say their boys wanted to be very independent from early age and they felt with hindsight they gave them a bit too much self determination too young. I'm not talking about naughty boys and no drugs/alcohol in either case - these are well behaved kids with it seems too much time to mooch about and get miserable and angsty. One is emo and doing the no caffeine, alcohol, drugs pledge.

Mine are 12 and 9 and the 12 yr old is clever, edgy kid who I could imagine following the same path. She's quiet and deep and reads all sorts of deep stuff and it's very easy to treat her like an adult. She's been having a hard time emotionally for the last few months and gets very wobbly sometimes and following my friends' advice I've told her that I will take away her control sometimes and just task her. She fed back to me this week that she really likes it when I do that for her. So for example she is currently struggling with getting to school - she has superb organisational skills and so I was leaving her to it but it has slipped away recently so I did her a step by step routine and she says she likes it when she doesn't have to always decide for herself. We are just looking around for a sport for her to join - a friend of mine with older girls thoroughly recommends sport as a way of them getting their heads clear. She's keen on climbing and skateboarding and I'm exploring a place with an indoor climbing wall as they don't have one in her school.

The friend with the suicidal kid obviously took loads of advice and she's the one with the structure/control notion. She said all the psychs said kids do best when they feel a good level of structure around them, even if they are pushing against it. So she has taken her boy right back to a younger kid's daily routine and he's much happier and thankfully now doing fine.

[helena handbasket]

Oh I absolutely agree with your entire post Ondine.

[Pecanpie]

Wow, thanks for so much input, some of these posts are really moving. I thought twice about posting this topic as an emotional issue. I know so many people going through behaviour nightmares, some have given up a social life as their kids are so hectic. All these comments have touched on similar issues, i'm going to summarise for my own head.

Gifted kids possibly need really firm boundaries as they test them especially well, it's never too soon to start. Kids, gifted or otherwise need structure, and need us to be the parent. I remember the shock as it sunk in that we had not just had a baby, we were going to have to be parents, sounds stupid but we really had not realised.

I know its a but depressing but Ondine had a really good point. Some survey rated Richmond as having a stunningly high insidence of depression in their teens. It was the middle class kids who were more likely to take drugs etc. Maybe we do need to protect our kids childhood and hold a firm line with them?

[EDmummy]

These last few posts really put the baby issue posts into perspective. I know how comforting parents with younger children find this section of the forum to find out about issues or to share but it would be great to see more posts from those who have older children.

All stages are part of a journey and the child who at 2 exhibits independent tendancies will not always end up the suicidal teenager. Society is such that a lot of teenage children will experiment with drugs and/or sexually risky behaviour etc. We have a responsibility as parents to have a relationship of respect and openness. HH's post really opened my eyes to the foundations of that type of relationship.