Times article - 'is motherhood a form of oppression?'

[Belle]

Thought this was interesting - about a new book by a French philosopher- not saying I agree with it but interesting reading!

http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/women/article7070165.ece

[reren]

Very interesting! I always quite liked that french idea that you just keep drinking and smoking in pregnancy - until I got pregnant...now i'm so terrified that something could be wrong with my baby even though i'm not doing anything wrong - I can't imagine puffing away happily!

I do think there's probably some truth to what she says - some of my friends have been properly annoying with their earthmother antics - but, the thing that always surprises me about that generation of feminists is that they don't seem to have bothered to notice that (thanks to their efforts) men of our generation have changed fundamentally. My husband would love to be a stay-at-home dad (probably because we haven't had any children yet and he doesn't know how hard it is) - he does the vast majority of house work now and gets really annoyed at how effectively my dad manages to swerve all domestic duties when we visit my parents. Obviously they aren't all different - but so many men today have a completely different attitude to domestic life than men in their 60s/70s - and that completely changes our choices and options...

Plus - although I love having a good job and independence am SOOOO looking forward to having a maternity leave. No matter how great your career might be - any job can be tedious and the idea of having 6 months off to do something completely different fills me with joy! I plan to be a working mum - but if i had the choice I'd love to spend a few years working part-time or even not working - not just for the child, but for me. Our generation is going to be working til we're 95 probably - would be great to have a few years doing something different!

[helena handbasket]

Oh how I love that optimism, I myself once had it.

I was known to make statements such as "maybe I'll get knocked up and take a year off" or "I'll get to that after the baby comes". !!!!!!!!!!!! And my friends won't let me forget it.

As it turned out, I didn't sleep, ever, at all, the first year and not only did I not get anything done that year my house completely fell apart! I had no idea..........

I liked the article though. I'm no earth mama but have spent a ridiculous amount of time paying attention to the little details for my son, and I'm sure 90% of it was for my own need. Did I really need to farm source organic veg and make all of his food myself? Doubt it! I won't get THOSE hours back! I don't think I have it in me to be all "French" about motherhood but I'll bet the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

We would probably be a lot happier if we didn't feel guilty about a glass of wine in the afternoon or the fag we snuck at the back of the garden. Of course the pregnant ones are not so good, no debate there.

[littleEDfamily]

I agree with a lot of it.

I love the French take on many things - a wonderful antidote to the (mostly conservative American) 'cult' of the 'Supermom', or what I like to call (must have got it from somewhere), the 'martyr complex'. Many of our mummy obsessions (of which I have many) are causing a sort of self-imposed tyranny that I can completely relate to.

I am so so peeved about the new advice that NO ALCOHOL WHATSOEVER is safe during pregnancy, as it seems there is zero evidence that light consumption has any proven adverse effects. I appreciate the ethical complexities of doing decent research on pregnant populations, but I do think that sort of approach is less than helpful (and fairly insulting). That all said, I am preggers and just cannot bring myself to enjoy a nice glass of wine with dinner. Case in point.

[snowboarder]

helena handbasket Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Oh how I love that optimism, I myself once had

> it.

Me too, haha!!!

I'm coming round to the French idea that our children should not rule the family however...We recently had a nanny come to help us with baby snowboarders sleep - she was french - and made no bones about the fact she thought British babies ran the entire household, to their own detriment. BabySB did (does?!?) apparently. This, she said, has to change...

Well. BabySB has other ideas...we'll see!! We're mid battle currently....

[apenn]

I love when social/political theory comes full circle.

I thought that I would find having a baby a complete ball and chain and that I would be itching to get back to work and keep up as much as possible my previously "normal" life. Much to my surpise, however, I don't mind it in the least.

If there is any baby tyranny, then I would put it in large part to the modern nuclear family social construction. If we still lived with or had much closer access to our extended families, and if the older generations of our families were not compelled to retire at older ages, then there would be much less of an intense burden on the mother, or mother and father. "It takes a village" and all that. Of course in my case I don't have the luxury of blaming society at large - I'm an expat and chose to live in a country where I would not have my family network available.

Luckily for you, dear reader, my little wriggling tyrant will not permit me to comment at any further legnth!

-A

[littleEDfamily]

PS Reren - couldn't agree more about how much men have changed. My dad seems very confused by how much my hubby helps out (and seems to do it because he wants to - all very bizarre to him, but he's very impressed).

Don't get me wrong there are certainly some men out there who have successfully swerved emancipation (that's what I like to call it as I think men have been also been suffocated by traditional roles) and persist with their neanderthal ways, but as long as men are evolving too, there's hope for a more balanced future of motherhood.

[R&A]

.

[ClareC]

My daughter is only 9 weeks old, I am amazed at the guilt I feel for no real reason! I also didn't realise that as soon as there is anything wrong with her I always blame myself... has parenting always been like this?

[littleEDfamily]

R&A - you should read Mothering Madness (I think that's what it's called, and sorry can't remember the author). You'd find it very refreshing! I did...

For me, the 'oppression' is not so much around the mechanics of motherhood, but the fact that psychologically we do seem to be, as you say R&A, dominated - 'defined' even - by our children, and I agree, there aint much 'feminism' in that.

Having said that, I breastfed for a long time because I found it easy and convenient (and it kept the weight off) - not because I felt any pressure to, and I am a passionate advocate for natural childbirth wherever possible, primarily as I think there is compelling evidence to suggest it is in the mother and baby's better interests (less chance of intervention etc etc), not because I believe mums should be made to suffer in the best interests of their baby. So I guess the point I am trying to make is that some the overt symptoms of 'child obsession' that people often reference(attachment parenting type stuff) I think are far less insidious than the often negative psychological state that seems to now come along modern motherhood - the constant fretting about them, the inability to stop talking about boring baby stuff, the loss of interest in things you used to love (like going out on a school night for several pints and a really good chat with mates) - the guilt!!!!!! And I know there are some practical reasons why these changes are bound to occur to come extent, but I think some of that change can be resisted, and, as this French women suggests most of us can do far better at preserving and developing ourselves and our non-child related interests, even if it's sometimes at the expense of our perfect mummy personas.

[Smiler]

Too knackered to read the article properly - much less any philisophical books - but am glad to see any discussion of feminist issues with respect to motherhood. Think it is missing at the moment.

When I was on maternity leave and swamped by baby-texts I went to the library -on the recommendation of a feminist, older friend - and borrowed a couple of classic feminist texts from the 60s and 70s, to dip into, which made a good contrast!

[Saila]

> "Having said that, I breastfed for a long time because I found it easy and convenient"

There's nothing more convenient than someone else doing a feed ;)

- but totally agree BF when it's a middle-of-the-night feed is easier than sorting out a bottle...

re weight -when i was BF my appetite was sky high still. It was the same as when i was pregnant. Moreover the food i ate was really bad quick/easy food (chocolate) because i was just too busy organising the baby to drum up anything more healthy

I wish i could have succeeded at BF but i can't deny the liberation i felt once i decided (finally after double mastitis near hospitalised, thrush & a dehydrated baby who ended up in special care) to drop it.

[Keef]

I am so so peeved about the new advice that NO ALCOHOL WHATSOEVER is safe during pregnancy

A doctor friend told us that this advise is given because they expect people to break the rules. If they say "you're alright having 2 or 3 a week", they think people will think they can push that and have 5 or 6. So, in saying you can have none, they think people will have a couple.

Like I say, it's only what a friend told us, but it seems to make sense.

[Keef]

Having said that, I still don't think Mrs Keef had any, or no more than a couple during the whole pregnancy, because had something gone wrong, she would have blamed herself.

When we lost a baby, the hospital said to us, "even if you've been drinking and taken drugs (which she hadn't!), that is NOT why this has happened".

ClareC, your comment about the guilt reminds me very much of Mrs Keef, she said she's never felt so guilty about EVERYTHING in her life!

I remember before the baby came along we were saying "well once she's 6 months, we'll be going out, and both having a few drinks"... Ha, what a load of nonsense that was!

[littleEDfamily]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I am so so peeved about the new advice that NO

> ALCOHOL WHATSOEVER is safe during pregnancy

>

> A doctor friend told us that this advise is given

> because they expect people to break the rules. If

> they say "you're alright having 2 or 3 a week",

> they think people will think they can push that

> and have 5 or 6. So, in saying you can have none,

> they think people will have a couple.

>

> Like I say, it's only what a friend told us, but

> it seems to make sense.

Yes, I heard that was the reason also, but it makes me even more peeved - it assumes we are all morons who can't interpret official guidelines properly.

If there is no evidence that one unit once a week is in any way harmful to the baby, why not just say that? I don't want 5 or 6 (well, deep down, yes probably I do.....), but I suspect anyone who really wants that much would probably do so regardless of the advice.

[plimsoul]

guilt is born with your child!

after an extremely easy pregnancy i did not take to motherhood easily. i was exhausted, felt out of the loop (whatever that loop was) and guilt. guilt at not breast feeding, guilt at not taking them to every class for toddlers, not going to baby groups, not getting a buggy where you baby can see you, using diposable nappies blah blah blah.... it goes on and on. guilt everywhere.

now i'm back at work and loving it but the guilt just spreads itself both ways, am i working enough? do the kids get to see enough of me? here we go again.

i've not read the article but judging by comments it's right up my street. however, having lots of family on ze continent i would say that the francophone version is just as harsh about what you should be ignoring as compared with our what you should be doing. it cuts both ways and all of it feeds into .... our perma GUILT!

[Smiler]

Should I feel guilty for not feeling guilty?!

[Belle]

It's funny though as from what I've heard the drinking in pregnancy thing in France is way more taboo than it is here.

I do think some of her views are (perhaps deliberately) extreme, but it's helpful to see different points of view on parenthood.

[littleEDfamily]

Smiler Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Should I feel guilty for not feeling guilty?!

Yes, you are a bad, bad, bad mother.;-)