Eye opening article in Observer

[mister_eels]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/apr/18/henry-porter-manifestos-election

This from a left-wing newspaper... how anyone can even consider voting Labour after all these years astounds me.

[SeanMacGabhann]

One can agree with all the points Porter makes - but if you think any elected party isn't going down the same road, you are deluded.

[????]

A defence of the Status Quo on 'oh nothing will change' once again Sean......shall we all just not bother, or is it Labour's only hope? Parties have Manifesto Commitments, if they don't keep to these, and they often don't, they can be held accountable (by the media and ultimately by the electorate) as Labour should and hopefully will in a few weeks. Gawd I'm dispariging about politicians but do you really think that this tired, awful, worn out, self interested corrupt shower shouldn't be booted out on their arse and someone else at least given another chance to let us down on the basis that 'nothing will ever change'?

[SeanMacGabhann]

I have neither defended the status quo. NOR said "nothing will change". Plenty will change should any other party get elected

BUT I can want this Labour party out at this election AND at the same time say that their opponents (not talking about Porter here) are making cheap points whilst not in power

Basically I'm saying I wouldn't kick them out for THIS reason

[SeanMacGabhann]

Actually the more I think about it the charge that I'm saying "nothing will ever change" pisses me off. Lazy argument

[Marmora Man]

If you want a small insight into Henry Porter's current thinking read his book a "A Dying Light". It's fiction and I bought it at an airport thinking it was generic airport lit written to while away too many hours in the air. It was much better than that, extrapolating current restrictions on civil liberty into the near future, with a nice thriller twist otr two.

Independent Review

[Marmora Man]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> Actually the more I think about it the charge that

> I'm saying "nothing will ever change" pisses me

> off. Lazy argument

But SEan - isn't it lazy not to posit an alternative and then promote and / or defend it?

[Loz]

Basically I'm saying I wouldn't kick them out for THIS reason

Funny, the main reason I want Labour out is the assault on civil liberties.

The Beeb had a topic-by-topic breakdown of the three main party's policies. Under 'Civil Liberties' the LibDems and the Tories outlined how they would improve civil liberties whilst Labour gave an essay on what other freedoms would be shot down by them over the next five years.

At least they are honest about being Fascists, I suppose. They think it's a vote winner and, sadly, in some quarters they are right.

[SeanMacGabhann]

loz - just for clarity, I am AGAINST Labour's plans on this issue. I just think the opposition are as keen to implement the same policies but can score more points by opposing it. And yes the media and electorate will give them a rough time but see also Labour's "ethical foreign policy" pre: Iraq

[bonaome]

Obviously, I could be just being very naive, but all the evidence I can see points to the Liberal Democrats paying considerably more than just vote courting lip service to addressing the errosion of civil liberties in the UK. I believe they will repeal the ID cards act and scrap the National Identity Register (of course there are financial reasons for that as well as political reasons).

You can see the civil liberties bill they have drafted here.

[SteveT]

Brown is breaking new ground.......trying to get elected to his office for the first and only time.

I am surprised the Labour party haven't had a change of leadership before this election campaign started, they would have had a much better chance of retaining power had they done so.

[BigOne]

' how anyone can even consider voting Labour after all these years astounds me. '

...Er, because some of us still remember how bad it was under the last Tory reign perhaps ? For the record, I am not voting at all ever again - the lot of them sicken me with their outright lies and utter deceit !!

[Marmora Man]

...Er, because some of us still remember how bad it was under the last Tory reign perhaps ? For the record, I am not voting at all ever again - the lot of them sicken me with their outright lies and utter deceit !!

I'm with Tony Benn on this. If you don't vote it's not worth listening to your opinion. You must take part in the democratic process to criticise it - abstention is not a political statement.

[steveo]

Putting a cross against a candidate's name means you want that party to represent you and I don't. Voting for the least bad is an unappealing option. It says that theft, lies, wars and mediocrity is OK. I don't want to be represented by any party that has members who in any other walk of life would be in prison.

Not voting is a vote for none of them.

[Marmora Man]

SteveO

The absence of action is not an action.

Nobody really loves politicians and there are seldom many positive reasons to vote for any - it is more usual to vote for the party that is least objectionable / closest to your own political beliefs. Personally, I'm of a libertarian instinct - I therefore look for maximum civil liberties, minimum regulation, small government and low taxes. No party meets all of my political aspirations but by involving myself in, and voting for, the party I do intend to vote for I obtain the right to debate, criticise and involve myself with the aim of moving their political objectives closer to mine.

You don't want to be represented by a party whose members, in any other walk of life, would be in prison. Ignoring the blanket and unfair condemnation that that phrase implies, I would suggest there are parties that either currently have no MPs (Greens, SWLP, Respect etc), or the party that was least blameworthy in the expenses scandal.

Like it or not - politics at Westminster is the way that the national business of governing UK - participating gives you a voice.

[steveo]

I have a voice whether I vote or not

[Magpie]

Spoil your ballet paper - your voice is counted at least

[Gimme]

Interesting to see in the policy announcements coming out today that there is a Great Repeal Bill designed to restore civil liberties. I'm sure the devil will be in the detail and I look forward to seeing exactly what they are going to repeal. I wonder if 42 days detention will go as well as ID cards.

[JohnL]

Marmora Man Wrote:

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> SteveO

>

> The absence of action is not an action.

>

If I was in court and I didn't recognise the legitamacy of the court - I'd refuse to plead

Refusing to vote may, rather than saying 'I don't care' may mean 'I detest the system, not just any political party, but the system'. Of course some people couldn't vote due to the inadequaties of the system.

[TonyQuinn]

The Observer "left-wing" eh......shows how right-wing you must be!

Porter has been writing the same column for five years....

[SeanMacGabhann]

THIS!!!

[expat]

> JohnL wrote

>If I was in court and I didn't recognise the legitamacy of the court - I'd refuse to plead

The court would still find you guilty or not guilty.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Indeed - didn't Saddam use the "don't recognise the court" routine

[Moos]

Charles I too.

As far as I recall, they shared the same fate, albeit not by the same method.