When and why did ED become so poncey?

[mockney piers]

There's a pretty healthy mix at the Lambeth Country Fair in Brockwell Park (tomorrow as it happens) and a mere stonesthrow away.

I studied population movements in the US when I was at uni and for the life of me can't really remember much about what I learned. Certainly immigrant ethnics do tend to huddle together as you stick with what you know, get the produce you're familiar with, speak the language etc. Hence why Walworth road has a very west African feel, Brixton a Caribbean feel etc.

But we're not nearly as ghettoised as many of the big US cities.

You look at the census and ED isn't so different to many other parts of london, but as someone previously pointed out it's about the visibility of that population, and here ED does suffer a bit, which is a pity.

Whether it's anything of overriding concern? I'm not sure and it'll take more than speculation on a forum to answer that one, but talk of apartheid seems to me a little hysterical.

That's my tuppence worth of musings for what it's worth (about a ha'penny)

[Dulwich_ Park_ Fairy]

I think its caused more by the unwillingness of many white people to move into an area of high ethnicity. This severely impacts on property prices and makes it much harder for those living in such an area to upgrade to a more expensive neighbourhood. Rapidly rising property prices are making this even more difficult.

[Louisa]

I think a quick analysis of population trends over the past 20 years shows just how dramatically two comparable areas have changed. In 1991 Peckham and East Dulwich were almost identical. Both were reasonly mixed areas with a white majority population and a mix of shops and relative average rates of crime and violence eg. It's only been in recent years the marked changes have occured. Comparing the 1991 census to the 2001 census, Peckham had in the space of a decade lost 50% of the white population. I believe these to be mostly white working class people who are linked to the whole 'white flight' debate. That is fair enough, and yes it did result in major chain stores moving out of Peckham and lots of smaller ethnic stores opening up to suit the needs of the population. similarly, post 1997 changes started to take place in ED which attracted a large middle class white population 'gentrification'.

These two neighbouring parts of London have seen dramatic swings and roundabouts in population trends, but what is clearly and visbly obvious is that the white population of Peckham shrunk and transformed the area, and the Black population of ED has shifted abroad or to other areas of town following the gentrification. How you can say its not an overring concern is beyond me mockney. I believe to have two areas less than a couple of miles apart where one area is becoming whiter and the other blacker is just ridiculous and damaging to community relations. If both sides do not make an active effort to integrate and move closer together then this country will be heading down the path of ghetto communities like those in the United States.

The next census is in 2011, and it will very interesting to compare and contrast what has happened in ED in that time. the 1991 census puts the minority population of ED wards around 30%, by 2001 this had fallen to 26%, and I am damn sure it will have fallen further by 2011. The Village has over 90% white population. And all this happening at a time when Britian has been experiencing mass immigration. It seems bizarre to me.

[mockney piers]

I dunno, this is all sounding a little Enoch Powell to me.

London is I think already minority white, if anything is a ghetto then it's probably East Dulwich rather than Peckham. London carries on doing what it's doing it all seems to functioning pretty well to me.

There are problem areas, these are sink estates where poverty and deprivation are endemic. It's just as much donw to dreadful planning decisions in the 60s and 70s as much as your perceived ghettoisation.

Plus you seem to be proposing government intervention to achieve I'm not sure what. Can you enlighten us further how "both sides [should] make an active effort to integrate"?

[fonson]

I moved to ED in 1993 and back then it had a reputation for being one of the nicer areas of South East London. One of the reasons for the mass middle class influx was that people could no longer afford to buy property in the Clapham area.

I come from an ordinary working class family and I appreciate the change in ED. I've seen many West Indians who bought property in areas like ED and Clapham back in the 60's eventually selling their propertys to money no question buyers in the 2000's to go home and live like royalty.

Good luck to the people moving to ED now they are nice and friendly and I am proud to be here!!

Who decided to call Abbeville road Abbeville village (Clapham)?....That's poncey and hilarious....

Another so called poncey area (Battersea) is where my cousins grew up and they also benefitted from the gentrification of that area because when they sold the family home bought in the 60's by their St Lucian parents, they were all able to put substantial deposits on properties of their own.

ED is looking good, be proud and don't worry about any negative outsiders!!

[Frisco]

I?ve lived in ED for twenty years, and in the area for over twenty-five years, so I?ve seen quite a lot of change. When ED changed to what it is now is quite a hard question, but I believe the change would have happened much sooner had house prices not collapsed in 1988, and then remained static for most of the next ten years.

However even from 1990 onwards, ED was changing and young professional couples were moving in on the basis that they liked the area, its unspoilt Victorian suburb feel. However, in my view the big change began to happen the derelict squatted houses at the top of Camberwell Grove were refurbished and marketed. I can?t recall if the marketing was done by an estate agent in ED rather than Camberwell, but it did seem to give rise to the potential of ED to people who?d probably never been the place before and who didn?t even understand where it was in relation to the rest of London.

Only two days ago, someone asked me where I lived and, when I said ED, their response was, ?that?s a bit far outside London, how do you manage?? Some people seem to think it?s in the depths of Kent.

As far as gentrification goes, even in the late 1980s ED was beyond many ordinary people?s incomes. It fell back within the reach of some in the 1990s, but it was always going to go back to being a target for incoming wealthly buyers sooner or later. Probably when the market picked up and places like Clapham went out of most people?s economic reach. I?m not against gentrification per se, but I am against the ghettoisation of areas to the extent that other groups are excluded. In my view, communities should be mixed and just as areas shouldn?t become wholly middle class or ?gentrified ?, so they shouldn?t become huge working class (or perhaps what?s now becoming known as the new underclass) enclaves, as became the case with Peckham, mainly due to large sprawling public sector estates, which were perceived as dangerous places.

Although, someone has referred to the ethnic divide that has developed between ED and Peckham, I?m of the view that there?s always been that divide, and it may be due to the greater proportion of public sector housing in Peckham that ED. I worked in Peckham 25 years ago and it was always had a very different feel in that time to some of its neighbouring areas. I also think there?s a danger of perceiving the ethnic mix in Peckham, and other similar areas, as being representative of London in terms of racial profile, when in fact it isn?t. There are areas (Brixton and Peckham being two, and perhaps Hackney being another) where lots of black people settled, for one reason or another, in the same way perhaps that a high proportion of Irish people settled in Kilburn or Portuguese in Stockwell. The East Dulwich Estate on Dog Kennel Hill is, however, an example of mixed cultural/ethnic living in ED.

Most incoming immigrants came and either lived in or bought in places where indigenous white people no longer wanted to live (which was the generally the inner parts of most cities). Places like Brixton or Notting Hill were popular because the housing had fallen out of fashion from the 1920/30s onwards, and either provided the opportunity for cheap purchases, or provided cheap (mostly sub-standard) housing in multi-occupied houses. Peckham was no different, but where it was different was that the Victorian housing that people settled in was soon demolished and vast and unworkable council house estates were built in their place. I?m afraid I don?t buy it that 20 years ago in Peckham 20 things were rosy and people all lived happily together shopping on Rye Lane, because that wasn?t the case. I was there 25 years ago working, at the time, with disadvantaged kids (mostly black) and Rye Lane was in steep decline. It didn?t work at all seem to work well, it was a fractured society and people were terrified of stepping foot on the North Peckham Estate, particularly postal workers, even then. Mainstream traders were leaving Rye Lane in droves because it wasn?t economical to be there, and apart from Sainsburys at DKH, they certainly weren?t moving to ED, which was a bit of a mixed and sleepy backwater.

[Louisa]

I am not at all suggesting Government intervention. How is that going to work? What I am suggesting is a mix of shops to attract people from all ethnic and social backgorunds to an area, a mix of social as well as private housing to promote all different types of people into an area.

The sink estates you are talking about have been improved upon in the Peckham area, so I do not see that as the issue at all. I think it is a case of different ethnic communities feeling the need to stay seperate and we need to find out why that is. I do not think it is a problem at the moment, because as you say mockney London is still functioning (just about), but the problems will come in the future when these already marginally segregated areas become even further seperated and isolated. Outside of London in towns like Blackburn and Luton the visible signs of demographic change have gone a step beyond. You now have whole taxi companies with exclusively white and/or Asian drivers appealing to their respective communities. It is just ridiculous. This will happen in London given time.

By the way London as of 2001 census was 69% white and 31% ethnic minority.

[Louisa]

Frisco, the steep decline of Rye Lane was accelerated following the closure of Jones & Higgins which came about as a result of high rents and indeed the notorious North Peckham Estate. But that place was relatively well mixed back then, the white population has shifted out of Peckham in droves from the late 1980's onwards and it has not at all helped community relations. Yes Peckham had its problems back then as many areas do, but the demographic changes I believe resulted in the black community feeling further isolted, despite the millions pumped in by the EU regeneration scheme. The fact many high street retailers refused to stick with Peckham did not help either, as it suggested that Peckham was obviously not worth worrying about because it was beoming so ethnically mixed. The irony is that many big chains are now considering ED even though it has less retail space along LL, simply because it has a high earning white middle class population, and it will not consider opening up on Rye Lane with larger retail units, because it does not have this clique. Its shocking and shameful.

[mockney piers]

Mixes of shops don't just happen, you need something to attract, and if economics won't or isn't then you need an extra pull, which is probably subsidies or attractive rates or something for which...da daaaaa intervention, whether that be local gov't, central gov't or the EU, same biscuit.

I must have been thinking of a few articles I've read of the last couple of years

Times: "There are now seven London boroughs in which whites are in a minority, up from three in 2001. Brent in northwest London has the highest proportion of non-whites, 69%."

Observer:"Government forecasts suggest that immigration on its own will be responsible for half the growth of the British population over the next couple of decades. Whites will be a minority in London by 2010."

[Frisco]

"but as someone previously pointed out it's about the visibility of that population, and here ED does suffer a bit, which is a pity."

Maybe that's the case on Lordship Lane, the character of which was changed by the arrival of Sainsburys in the early 1990s anyway, with the subsequent large number of boarded up shops (subsequently taken over by the independent shops referred to as selling high priced 'tat'), but the visibility of the ethic mix of the area seem to be pretty obvious when shopping in Sainsburys, or in the Tesco on East Dulwich Road.

[mockney piers]

precisely frisco. I've always thought there was a healthy mix in the area, it IS a pity that there is less of a mix on the high street though.

[Louisa]

Government intervention has taken place in some areas, Brixton and Peckham two good examples. Firstly the transformation of community relations with the police and then the great big economic handout from the EU to make Peckham seem more fluffy. Non of this has solved the issue of segregation in my opinion. If whites are becoming the minority, then this is yet a further problem, because middle class and upper class whites will restrict themselves to certain isolated wealthy communities within London, 'white flight' will continue from working class areas, and in 20 years the white community will be happily living in gated leafy communities dotted around poorer degenerating ethnic neighbourhoods.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Until Louisa made the point I had forgotten just how divided Sheffield was (and is) when I used to be there - and I definitely see that as unsettling and a potential issue

But (and we probably won't get to agree on this Louisa) as Mockney points out, London is different - by it's nature. The differences you describe between ED & Peckham are inarguable, but unlike the northern cities, people do flow between the areas in London quite freely with vey few no-go areas (certanly very few no-go because of ethnicity). Immigrants have always gravitated to an area an then dipersed to be replaced by new waves - we can all think if the areas (Brick Lane used to be Jewish before it's current incarnation)

I think we are all on the same side on this one, but with different strategies. Peckham already has that mix of housing you describe Louisa but it can't magic-up shops - the people have to be there before the shops.

[Louisa]

Frisco, I would say the Sainsburys i've been to in Horsham is more ethnically mixed than the one on DKH, no word of a lie. Sainsburys 10 years ago on DKH was very ethnically mixed, but I would say comparably to somewhere like Somerfield in Camberwell or Morrisons in Peckham, it is very much a white majority in there. A visble one too, which matches the sitution along LL as well.

Only a few shops along Grove Vale attract the black community into the area, and those waiting for buses near the DKH Estate.

[*Bob*]

Louisa,

I think your 'Doomsday Scenario' is rather far-fetched.

I don't deny that there is a growing gap between well-off and poor, but the number of well-offs continues to increase. They're not some shrivelling minority (that's the 'rich' you're talking about there). We're going to need an awful lot of gated communities to fit them all in.

Personally I think we should just gate-off anything north of Watford, and refuse to allow them entry unless they know what a ciabatta is.

[Frisco]

Louisa, the steep decline of a shopping area is rarely dependent on one retailer pulling out, and similar stores were closing all over London at the time, but some other areas didn't decline as much as Rye Lane did.

"The irony is that many big chains are now considering ED even though it has less retail space along LL, simply because it has a high earning white middle class population"

Which big chains are these?

[Louisa]

Sean I agree, London has traditionally attracted wave upon wave of immigrant community to speicific areas of town, that isnt something I dispute. But where we are getting into new territory, which is very worrying, is the white community becoming the minority, and feeling they have to gravitate to a certain area and stick together to live, which I believe to be very different to immigrant communities who want to settle in an area and then disperse at a later date. White people doing it is slightly different and can lead to an element of racism, in most cases unknowingly I admit, but it can and probably will happen. This is not a good thing.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I'm not worried about becoming a minority - and I won't be moving to Essex any time soon, so I'm not sure why white families would feel they had to gravitate to a certain area. Let's say in 20 years time ED's makeup is 30% white and 70% Caribbean - why would I leave? You and I will still be here and the food will be better ;-)

[Louisa]

Frisco, if I remember rightly, four major chains pulled out of Rye Lane within the space of about 2 years. This all followed on from the death of the J&H department stores. I know the threat of the channel tunnel rail link did force house prices down locally and indeed sent many retailers out of business, but I do believe that the North Peckham Estate contributed significantly to the demise of Peckham as a place to shop.

The chains that spring to mind are White Stuff (they could easily open a fairly sizeable store along Rye Lane and opted for LL), potentially M&S who lets face it will move to ED (just a matter of time, probably the Somerfield site) despite the fact they closed a large retail unit on Rye Lane in 1988. Foxtons the estate agent moving into the area, I cant think of a single estate agent on Rye Lane. we have the co-op chemist, Iceland, William Hill bookies, Tesco Express, Sainsburys (again moved out of a large retail unit in Peckham).

[missd]

just a couple of quick points. I think, Louisa, that your talk of ghetto communities and apartheid is way over the top. It's not jsut about race anyway and certainly not jsut about black and white. there is a large, and growing Indian population in ED/Peckham. SMBS does more than just 'sell some ethnic produce' -it is run by Indians. There are lots of other Asian-owned shops/businesses all along Lordship Lane and in Peckham Rye. There is a Sikh temple just off Lordship Lane too.

i dont think i've ever heard of the term 'an ethnically mixed supermarket' either...?

[Frisco]

"But where we are getting into new territory, which is very worrying, is the white community becoming the minority, and feeling they have to gravitate to a certain area and stick together to live, which I believe to be very different to immigrant communities who want to settle in an area and then disperse at a later date."

What you are referring to is not a matter purely of race, if it is at all, it is a demonstration of the growing gap between rich and poor (particularly in terms of access to property), with the added issue of 'class' probably entering the equation too. What you really pointing, perhaps unknowingly, out is that ED is becoming a middle class enclave, where no one, white, black or asian can move to, unless they have the money to do so.

On the diversion of immigrants issue, that too has changed, with parts of Tower Hamlets being an example, where some relatively new immigrant groups seem to be permanently settling, unlike what seemed to happen in the past.

[Ted Max]

Only a few shops along Grove Vale attract the black community into the area, and those waiting for buses near the DKH Estate

You might want to rethink that sentence. It might be that you could be interpreted as suggesting that black people might only be attracted by Rice n Peas and the odd barber - rather than nice bars and restaurants like everyone else.

EDIT: Not to say Rice n Peas isn't nice - many's the time it's saved my bacon as I've swayed off a late train from LB.

[Louisa]

missd, the Indian community in ED is fairly small compared to other areas of London, and even though there are Indian restauarants and newsagents makes little or no difference at all. I can think of other white majority areas with a few Indian restaurants and newsagents, that isnt unheard of.

[Louisa]

Ted Max, I am not suggesting that is all they want, but I am suggesting that is all they have offered speicific to their community, lets not get too pc about this.

[missd]

Louisa it doesn't really matter if it is small compared to anywhere else (and again might want to rethink your sentence -it's not just restaurants and newsagents). There are other people living in ED/Peckham other than black/white.

I think this is being made into a big issue about race when really it is more, as Frisco said above, a case of the ED area, and along towards some parts of Peckham Rye, becoming a bit wealthier. That's it -people of all races are becoming less and less able to buy there as the price of property is increasing. It's not that "white people are becoming the minority, and feeling they have to gravitate to a certain area and stick together to live"