Stunned

[Burbage]

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The Union breaks up.. That's good. Everyone can

> just get on trading together without Brussels

> interfering..

That's right. Just don't mention the Cod Wars.

> Look at the positive side for the future.. Look

> what can now be acheived. Come on.. you know me.

> It's not often I feel so positive about anything..

Well what, exactly?

I can see the benefit for some. James Dyson, for example, a once-famous flogger of Malaysian-made hand-driers, might benefit from tariffs being slapped on EU goods. International Motor Group, an importer of Chinese cars, will surely welcome less restrictive standards. Peter Hargreaves, the billionaire founder of a financial advice service, will do very nicely from all the confusion. And JCB, a maker of yellow diggers, might escape future penalties for their carbon emissions.

But who else will benefit? Anyone who wasn't funding the Leave campaign? I can't think of any.

The Brexit campaign mendaciously claimed to be aimed at giving voters more power. But you'll still only have one vote, and the darling politicians won't listen to your rantings any harder. It'll be the same old, same old, but with one less avenue for redress, and a single government wide open to bullying by transnationals.

This is very similar to the time when, urged by the newspapers, building society members voted to grab the money and run. That was seen as an opportunity, too. But what we got, more-or-less directly, was Northern Rock and a house-price bubble.

[Blah Blah]

Quite Burbage. Opportunity for who? The same establishment that left the now aggrieved communities to rot for three decades. Only now they won't have to abide by worker protections. They'll keep the immigration though. Big business likes that. Those who voted leave believing the borders would be closed will feel doubly cheated. There are no winners. The MPs fighting for this referendum were not doing it for their own business interests. 'Free the UK' sounds very like 'Free the City', and we all know where that took us.

[malumbu]

It was refreshing to hear at least one Brexiter is considering what they have done. Cutting off their nose to spite not only their own face but future generations.

I've been through so many emotions in the last day and a half. I'm tired and grumpy. I've been impressed by many of the posts and face to face discussions with people who feel similar to me. I was trying to be philosophical and understand the views of the many who feel out of touch with the political system and have been affected as their communities change. Now I am angry at the ignorance and harm.

I've had a lot do do with the EU for a number of years and it still confuses me. I recall issues about the Common Agricultural Policy yet barely a mention in the last few weeks. The Commission are slow, ponderous and bureaucratic. A friend couldn't stand the lack of structure and purpose in her post and left her secondment. How can we get political union without financial union. Loads of negatives here and I still don't understand it.

When I went to a presentation with MPs and various top brass on protecting biodiversity the lady from the Commission was impossible to follow and confused me. Then the government gave their position and it was clear that we can't be trusted on the environment.

This wasn't my road to Damascus. I was never going to vote any differently. Just with all the fugg about how it operates we failed to get the benefits over.

[malumbu]

Sorry that was all over the place. My reference to how confusing the EU was, was trying to show sympathy for the masses. On further reflection I need to vent my anger against Gove, Johnson and Hilton. I expect that Farage followers would have voted for Brexit however the debate had gone.

[JohnL]

I'm angry with this mess and surely those who voted for Brexit are likely to be hit worse.

I can't see a Boris government supporting steel, Nissan in Sunderland and others

don't look to have a good future.

London will re-invent itself somehow I expect - although possibly not.

I don't feel an overarching sense of Britishness however - more closely

associate with London (after 12 years) and Wales (born there) and if

Scotland leave that will fall.

[JohnL]

malumbu Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Sorry that was all over the place. My reference

> to how confusing the EU was, was trying to show

> sympathy for the masses. On further reflection I

> need to vent my anger against Gove, Johnson and

> Hilton. I expect that Farage followers would have

> voted for Brexit however the debate had gone.

People now say Boris's plan was to lose.

I keep tweeting about Corbyn 'he was never with us

in the first place' - even though I rather like him.

[Blah Blah]

Has been annouced that Scottish SNP are beginning the paperwork and process to a 2nd referendum on independence.

[rendelharris]

JohnL Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> I keep tweeting about Corbyn 'he was never with

> us

> in the first place' - even though I rather like

> him.

I reluctantly agree, I like JC very much but this referendum has very clearly demonstrated that he hasn't got what it takes to win an election, and with Boris opposite him at the despatch box making half-arsed jokes in Latin he'll probably look even worse (in the eyes of many, not me). Sadly it seems there isn't much room for a quiet thoughtful cove at the top of British politics, if Labour are to get back in we need someone with a bit more PR nouce (sp?) and an eye for populism. It's a shame it has to be like that, but it is what it is. I fear of lot of fine former prime ministers (Atlee, for example) wouldn't have got a sniff of power in this day and age.

[malumbu]

More on the mess we now have to sort our. Worrying that Brexit Ministers will be driving this. http://www.globalgovernmentforum.com/brexit-will-be-largest-legal-legislative-and-bureaucratic-project-in-british-history-says-former-uk-treasury-solicitor/

On a separate note not sure who is the architect for the break up of the union, Cameron or Johnson. Let's just say that it was lost on the playing fields of Eton.

Can some person please scrawl on the leave posters close to the Harvester "oh my God what have you done"

[Louisa]

Cameron has not only overseen the first breakup of the UK, he's managed to unleash an entirely avoidable scenario by allowing this disastrous remain campaign to fail, and consequently engineer a second Scottish independence referendum alongside rocking the fragile peace process in Northern Ireland - and that's before we even get into the topic of the economic, social and political consequences of the brexit vote which people like me have naively fallen for in the hope of creating a better world. As each hour passes the more regretful I become.

Louisa.

[rendelharris]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Cameron has not only overseen the first breakup of

> the UK, he's managed to unleash an entirely

> avoidable scenario by allowing this disastrous

> remain campaign to fail, and consequently engineer

> a second Scottish independence referendum

> alongside rocking the fragile peace process in

> Northern Ireland - and that's before we even get

> into the topic of the economic, social and

> political consequences of the brexit vote which

> people like me have naively fallen for in the hope

> of creating a better world. As each hour passes

> the more regretful I become.

>

> Louisa.

I have a lot of respect for that comment, Louisa.

[miga]

I think a lot of people are going through that Louisa. I think even Remainers are being surprised by some of the domino effects. In a way I feel quite sorry for people who voted Leave. They'll get very little if anything of what they wanted or were tempted with, to the background of massive collateral damage.

[Alan Medic]

#regrexit seems to becoming popular

[aerie]

Alan Medic Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> #regrexit seems to becoming popular

or voters remorse

[Blah Blah]

What worries me more is the disappearance of Osborne (hasn't been seen in public since Thursday) and the lame duck position Cameron is now in for the next three months. Meanwhile it is increasingly clear that the Brexit gang haven't got a clue what to do right now. There was never any plan for this scenario (i.e a leave win). Whatever the future holds, deal we end up with, it's as though for now, government has completely stopped! Meanwhile the SNP know exactly what they are going to do and have already started the road to new referendum!

[civilservant]

it takes a lot of courage to post as you did above, Louisa - we need to stop recriminations among us voters and look ahead to work out what can be salvaged.

but we can feel justified in our anger against the political classes - from Remainers for the complacency and lacklustre campaigning and from Brexiters for being fed a pack of self-serving lies.

[jaywalker]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> What worries me more is the disappearance of

> Osborne

The problem is that the starting point (not conclusion) of all this is a 5% recession i.e. fall in real GDP. AND,

We already have a 5% inflation hit on the way due to the collapse of the pound (more of that on Monday). Inflation then tends to be self-fuelling (with no EU workers to take the strain, wage claims will try to leap-frog prices). So we now have imminent stagflation (stagnation and inflation) even if we announced today that we are staying in EU. (some serious calls for this by the way ? parliament is sovereign so if things get out of hand very quickly they may simply refuse to ratify result or support brexit govt).

The central bank reaction will be to print money: watch for interest rates cuts to zero and cash handouts to financial institutions in distress (particularly insurance companies, pension funds (bad luck to the silver voters who wanted this) and, particularly, any firms with foreign currency denominated debt exposure.) This will be in the name of ?financial stability?.

That will shift inflation up massively (on the alibi of stopping unemployment).

Then with positive-feedback in inflation getting out of hand (that takes about 12 months) reverse gear, interest rates up (if only because the govt otherwise unable to finance its deficit) and unemployment 3 or 4 million before you can blink.

After that I guess it?s anyone?s guess. My fear is that those who were already suffering economically, so voted Brexit, will then think its all a conspiracy of bankers/London/etc as the govt has to radically cut spending on benefits/NHS etc: affecting precisely the constituency that voted ?out?. Then the far right gets traction big time.

The economics is very well evidenced: think 1971 (or in a much smaller way the ERM exit debacle). Really the economics is clear and has been repeated (but not on this scale) several times.

There is already a massive hit to the London economy, that economy currently bails out Ruritania but will now be unable to do so. HSBC announced 1000 high earning job cuts today, 2000 Morgan Stanley yesterday. We have seen nothing yet.

Get today?s FT if you can (usually on sale tomorrow also). The most disturbing I?ve ever seen, and unlike the rest of the press written for a reading age of at least 14.

[Louisa]

What's all the more harrowing for me, is seeing some of the awful racism that has been emboldened by the brexit vote, something I never wanted nor even began to consider before Friday. I've seen some shocking reports of hate crime across the country, including here in London. Not only has it (allegedly) been aimed at EU workers, but also at third or forth generation Brits with an Asian or Afro-Carribbean heritage, and that makes me so very very sad. I would just like to assure everyone my intentions were never to legitimise any form of hatred aimed at anyone, that's so far from the type of person I am and the way I think and feel. I am hopeful that much of this is only low level reactionary responses from the most despicable people in our country, and isn't reflective of the majority who voted for brexit because they wanted genuine democratic change.

As you say above civilservant, we must now try and salvage something from this messy situation, and I am hopeful that Blah's analysis of a Norgwegian style deal will be possible, or perhaps even another referendum. Last time I ever take at face value the words of people who squander my democratic right within 24 hours of me voting for them.

Louisa.

[cacaolat]

WorkingMummy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> A hot meal elsewhere??? Louisa, hold firm to your

> beliefs of course by all means. But some empathy

> for people facing huge personal uncertainty and

> anguish, and for people genuinely grieving the

> enforced loss of our membership by a very narrow

> margin, from Leave, would feel so good.

>

> The European family is a public and a personal

> idea which I support on so many levels. Today is a

> day of enormous sadness and confusion to those of

> us with multi national, European families.

>

> Leave does mean leave, Louisa. Just like divorce

> means divorce. Read clause 50. We say go. The EU

> decides the terms of our exit by a majority vote.

> We have two years to talk terms but any member

> state can veto any request by us for more time to

> agree our exit. Any new deal negotiated has to be

> reached separately. There is no provision for

> remarriage on within clause 50. All existing EU

> states get a right of VETO over any request to

> rejoin the EEA, let alone as to the terms.

>

> I can't help but think that those who are so

> cavalier about our future now must have very

> little personal at stake in this awful thing we

> now face.

Working Mummy this is exactly how I feel, from another European / British family, the arguments of those leave voters on this forum are just sadly ridiculous.

They have no idea of the benefits the EU really brought to this country, like workers rights, human rights etc. And really the EU membership fee was paid back many times by increased prosperity. And I dare to even mention even the euro has not done so badly as it is always made out. The pound was 1.45 euros in 2002-2004 but recently it was around 1.25, so over the last 15 years the euro has still done better than the pound.

[Blah Blah]

Yes it's as though the result has given licence to the racists that we all know do exist in places, to behave disgracefully. I know that's not what you wanted to see Louisa, none of us did.

That's a really worrying analysis Jaywalker. Of course the drop in sterling has signalled the start, and they have already announced expected inflation of at least 4% by the end of next year (which seems to reflect what you are saying). Many people don't understand why any of the economic babble matters, but it absoutely does. And your predictions if right, blow Osborne's economic plan out of the water. That is probably why he is in hiding and no doubt in panic. I think it also destroys any logic to his going for the leadership too. Who would want to be the one to govern over that fiscal disaster, if it happens. We are already struggling to get borrowing down as it is.

I think we have to go for a Norway style deal, as soon as possible too, to stabilise what already were difficult markets accross the world. It's not what people voted for, but someone has to be strong enough to stand up there, put future ambition aside, and do what is truly best for the economy.

[WorkingMummy]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/brexit-cornwall-issues-plea-for-funding-protection-after-county-overwhelmingly-votes-in-favour-of-a7101311.html

[aerie]

Blah Blah Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yes it's as though the result has given licence to

> the racists that we all know do exist in places,

> to behave disgracefully. I know that's not what

> you wanted to see Louisa, none of us did.

>

> That's a really worrying analysis Jaywalker. Of

> course the drop in sterling has signalled the

> start, and they have already announced expected

Re your first sentence, encoupling Louisa's dismay:

and not intending to add fuel to the fire =

I have a 'well to do' friend I have known well for years, been through thick and thin etc,

Because I am not sure her speech would be printed verbatim, half the point of this post is lost

twice using words which shocked me, we are allowed freedom of speech now apparently.

You think you know someone....

and realise there was a lid being kept on, now blown away, as though her ghastly assumptions of racial superiority are now somehow valid.

I am sad for the spoilt friendship, and sorry for anyone falling out through opposing views.

And feel as though I have been part of a weird social experiment, an exercise in divisiveness.

>

>

>

[heartblock]

So Cornwall voted out of the EU, but now want EU money? Didn't they also put up a sign somewhere basically saying f**k off England....

[Tigres Pride]

I notice that no-one has commented on -

"FTSE continues recovery in aftermath of Brexit shock

24/06/2016 - 16:09

The FTSE 100 recovered from the initial shock of Britain's decision to leave the European Union to end 3.15% lower at 6,138.69 which, to add context, is higher than last Friday's close."

So much for Financial repurcussions !!! It would seem that the more people quote and bemoan possible dire consequences, the more they are likely to happen. A self-fulfilling prophecy, perhaps.

As for the EU, if you listen to the Leaders of the main Countries, they are all saying that they agree that the whole set-up needs a good re-think.

Whether we eventually stay in or come out I think the threat of BREXIT has given the EU a good shake-up and made it start to look at itself and that can only be good for all concerned.

[Blah Blah]

But the pound is still down by a third and ?100bn was lost off the markets. Someone incurred those losses. You need to understand how markets work a bit better.