The Enemies of Reason, Channel 4, Monday 8pm

[MadWorld74]

still, it's assocaition in many ways. So what was the outcome of last nights show? Did he some up?

[david_carnell]

We're all going to hell in a handcart if we follow these people back into the dark ages. Witch burning will follow....oh and astrology is the biggest load of sh*t going.

[Mark]

one of the points made was that people who try and establish facts about a subject through reason, science and most importantly evidence should not be accused of being narrow minded. People in the programme who took tests and were proved wrong continued to believe that they were correct such was the convictions of their own belief and, dare I say, narrow mindedness.

[*Bob*]

For those that don't read Mr Brooker:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theguide/columnists/story/0,,2145124,00.html

[MadWorld74]

david_carnell wrote: Charlatans proclaiming to cure the world's ills through homeopathy/reiki/crystals/hot stones etc etc. Try telling that to the third world whilst they wait for innoculations against TB, malaria, polio, typhoid and river blindness.

None of the above therapists claim to cure the world of ills, they cater for individuals who come to them for a wide range of issues. Many people use these therapsists in the UK, and as far as I know we are free from River Blindness.

And be careful when you go about calling people who have specific qualifications/training, 'charlatans'. You have just labelled me a charlatan david_carnell, and I am not impressed. You can't tar us all with the same brush.

[david_carnell]

Then submit yourself for double-blind scientific trials and when you pass with flying colours I shall whole-heartedly apologise and admit my error. Until then I shall continue to believe in medicine and science that is regularly peer-reviewed and submitted to stringent testing before it comes near me.

[MadWorld74]

peer-reviewed???

The Western pharmacuetical munching, peer reviewed world, is caught in a spiral of finding cures rather than prevention of the cause. It's all about money and sales figures.

Those who are responsible for the stringent tests are the same who are responsible for not being able to knock MRSI on the head. Don't get me started on the NHS. If I knew then what I knew now, I'd have stayed well clear of all doctors and surgeons. I won't go into it, but alternative medicine saved me, as a direct result of our 'peer tested medicine' completely buggering me up.

I have never said I could cure the world of all ills. What I can do is make it a bit of a happier place for some.

[Mark]

MadWorld74 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

... What I can do is make it a bit of a happier place for some.

And I for one think that's great, I've tried homoeopathy, acupuncture, colonic irrigation, aromatherapy, meditation, heck I'm even a qualified hypnotherapist and it's all about making people feel better. Positive thinking (as was mentioned before).

ps just coz I've tried them doesn't mean I would necessarily recommend them

[Brendan]

Surely hypnotherapy does not fall into this? I would have thought that modifying behavior through suggestion has been scientifically tested and proven. At least that is what my university psychology lecturer led me to believe.

[*Bob*]

Hmm.. Were you looking into his eyes when he told you, Brendan?

Do you exhibit any other kind of strange behaviour, like, say, leaping onto a table and barking like a dog whenever you hear the word 'cucumber'?

[david_carnell]

If you claim to solely make people feel better mentally then that is entirely different from claims made by swathes of the alternative medicine industry about curing all manner of problems.

I agree that positive thinking is extremely important when looking to heal the sick but then what you a providing is surely nothing more than a placebo? I don't want to insult anyone and I apologise now if I've offended you (this is not my aim at all) but to claim that publications such as the Lancet is funded by the pharma industry (is this what you are sayong?) and therefore misses opportunities to find causes of illness rather than merely the cure is incredibly naive.

Cures for many common complaints are quite common sense. Overweight? Eat less, exercise more. Don't smoke, drink in moderation. Eat a balanced diet. Practice safe sex and don't do drugs. Does this mean we stop looking for cures for obesity, cancer, aids or whatever? No of course not. Modern medicine is responsible for saving the lives of millions of people and yet it is now being dismissed due to its reliance on drugs(!!??). Relying on scientifically proven and tested meidicine is not narrow-minded, it is the most sensible and intelligent thing to do - as Mark points out. Modern science does not have all the answers, but to assume that new-age twaddle can fill in the gaps is simply preposterous.

[MadWorld74]

Yes that's right!! hurrah hurrah a voice of positivity. Too many threads on here quick to dismiss alternative therapies and too many people being bombastic and negative.

You need to do what you can in this bloody screwed up world of ours, to make it life a little better.

[Brendan]

*Bob* Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hmm.. Were you looking into his eyes when he told

> you, Brendan?

> Do you exhibit any other kind of strange

> behaviour, like, say, leaping onto a table and

> barking like a dog whenever you hear the word

> 'cucumber'?

Browwwwwk!

Erm excuse me. Come to think of it he did have a slicked back ponytail and wear a leather waistcoat.

[*Bob*]

MadWorld74 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> You need to do what you can in this bloody screwed

> up world of ours, to make it life a little better.

I suggest recreational drugs. They cheer me up no end.

[MadWorld74]

Tried them, got bored. Hence the Reiki. Joke.

[Keef]

Watched most of the programme, and though it was crap. He picked on shockingly stupid "psychics".

Now I can't help thinking he does that, so everyone thinks yeah he's right, they're all frauds. Then when he starts picking on the more honest alternative therapists, he already has a load of people believing that he's exposing frauds, and so has already won half the battle before he's started.

I think he's a tw@t.

[MadWorld74]

I could not have put it better Keef.

[Mark]

is there anything other than "shockingly stupid "psychics""? ;-)

[Jeremy]

I didn't actually see this - but I think Richard Dawkins is spot on most of the time. He puts his belief firmly in science, and refuses to believe things which cannot be explained or reliably observed. And he has no time for people who blindly believe what they're told, without questioning it or seeking evidence. Frankly I would expect nothing else from a scientist.

His condescending tone does tend to detract from his message, which is a shame because it prevents it from reaching those who could benefit most from what he has to say.

[MadWorld74]

I have just read a review of last night's show, in the Independent. Words used to discribe Hawkins' strategies:

Shooting fish in a barrel

Destroying microbes in a petri dish

Sledgehammers and nuts

Dawkins argues like a juggernault flattening everyhting in it's path...

[Mark]

so someone says something that you agree with and therefore it's correct? Or am I mistaken and the reviewer say that Dawkins was good and was expertly disseminating the preachers of guff?

Enlighten us.

Anyway, if I'm not mistaken you never actually saw the programme, you passed judgement after hearing his tone of voice. At least others saw it and made their thoughts known, I don't care if they think Dawkins is a tw@t but I appreciate the fact they saw it.

[edited once]

[MadWorld74]

I was simply picking out the comments used to describe last nights show. From what I have gathered from the article, it was Dawkins heavy handed way of rubbishing those that featured on the show the reviewer picked up on. Yes the reviewer thought his slant on astrology; by calling it a 'mutli-million pound industry', was fair, however on the other hand his description of priests, mullahs and rabbis as "New Age Mystics.." he deemed to be a little harsh. I think Brian Viner just weighed up the pro's and con's of the show.

[MadWorld74]

Mark, what are you getting at? I simply posted on here some of the comments the reviewer made in the paper, as others who did watch it may be interested in reading it. After some of the postings on here I though the 'shooting fish in barrel' analogy may have amused some. That's all.

[capt_birdseye]

I liked all the excuses the dowsers came up with to explain why they were unable to detect which containers held water, including:

"They should have laid scaffold planks above the containers so that I could walk above the water"

and

"God likes having a laugh sometimes!"

Still fair play to them for taking part in a controlled experiment.

I may set myself up as a psychic, looks like easy money. "I've got a message coming through from someone called George...anyone in the forum connected to a deceased George...? No? Joe? Yes, that's it Joe. There's something here about pubs, he went to pubs...? Yes... he was tee-total, that's it, never went to the pub."

[mockney piers]

He he, yep, mediums are the worst of them, ghouls feeding on the grief of others, who are so desperate for some connection that they gloss over just how rubbish these people are.

You only have to catch five minutes of that idiot Colin something or other on one of the freeview channels to squeal with embarrassment at how bad he really is.

"Is there a Bob, no, Alan? No, Louisa? Spadetownboy that's it, yes i can sense he's african...no? err....eskimo? Saarf London Scottish, ooh warmer am i...errrr Irish. Yes Spadetown boy from Ireland, see how I commune with the spirits..amazing!!