The Enemies of Reason, Channel 4, Monday 8pm

[SeanMacGabhann]

I watched the programme and have to say that I had heard a lot about Dawkin's attitude - he didn't seem THAT bad but nor did he seem like someone I would want to go for a pint with, Then again I didn't fancy a pint with anyone else on there

Madworld74 - the Independent's comments chime with others I've seen but I'm not sure that it paints Dawkins in a bad light. He seems open to the idea of any of these beliefs as long as they are able to prove themselves in any kind of meaningful way. If, to take the case of the major-league water dousers, they are not able to between them locate any water in a measured experiment then what leg do they have to stand on. Shooting fish in a barrel reflects more on the participants than it does Dawkins IMO

Similarly Neil Spencer, currently astrologist at The Observer and formerly editor of NME, just was not interested in any kind of discussion abliut "well we gave different people of different starsigns all the same horoscope (Capricorn) and asked them if they felt it related to them." - About half of themsaid it did half didn't(including the sole Capricorn!) So, what is it for again?

I'm not lumping your particular baby in with water-dousing or astrology but given what you have said about plenty of demonstrable cases it will be interesting viewing.

Has anyone on here read John Diamond's book, written just before he died of cancer and his related diatribe about both "conventional" and "alternative" medicine? There is only that which works or doesn't - anything else is a sales-pitch

[Mark]

I was just making the point that you never saw the programme yet continue discuss it. I appreciate that it's something you are close to, and I'm not meaning to continually offend you, but it would have been better to discuss a programme with someone who had actually seen the programme.

right, I'm off to top up my Ju Ju

[mockney piers]

I just got past the bit where Francis Wheen quotes Diamond's experiences with cancer.

"Have you tried squid's cartilage? Establishment doctors scorn it, of course, but my aunt is still alive on it two years after her oncologist gave her six months to live (well, yes, since you ask, she is having radio therapy as well). Or there's this wonderful healer who practices the laying on of feet, with astonishing results. Apparently it's all a question of tuning your holistic (or is it holographic?) energies to the natural frequencies of organic (or is it orgonic?) cosmic vibrations. You've nothing to lose, you might as well try it. It's ?500 for a course of treatment but what's money when your life's at stake"

[capt_birdseye]

The astrology analogy with national stereotypes was funny.

Germans: this week you will be very hard-working

Brits: your stiff-upper lip may be perceived as aloofness

[MadWorld74]

Fine. I won't discuss it anymore. Thanks. Goodbye.

[Mark]

don't forget part two's on next week, Monday 8pm Channel 4

[hyounan]

wow.

Ive just registered with the forum as Ive just moved to the area and sadly for those critics out there, I too am in the healing industry.

You know, topics like these are always controversial with no right or wrong answer. If you hold an open view that anything is possible, you do not lose and if you are open to explore therapies that encourage you to find your own inner strength or a belief system that supports you in life or just makes you feel good is a gain . Yes, western medicine does serve a purpose to humankind (but it does not get to the root of the problem) but I also think eastern philosophy is just as powerful and can be an addition.

Another thing, it is important to know that for a long time, we have been hearing such quotes like 'you will worry youself sick' which indicates how powerful your thoughts are and how it can affect how you physically feel. So if you negative thoughts can affect your physical body then why cannot reiki healing, affirmations, visualisations or meditation, massage also serve a purpose in assisting you to good health if the person is wanting and believing in change.

I will probably get a backlash with this... ! ;-)

[MadWorld74]

Don't be feel sad for the critics hyounan they'll alwyas find something else to critic. I'm glad you're hear.

[Mark]

Welcome to East Dulwich hyounan.

So "hold an open view that anything is possible, you do not lose". Cool! Tomorrow I will win the lottery and I will buy everyone on the forum a packet of Refreshers, I'm so excited I feel better already.

You probably get that all the time coming out with phrases like that ;-). Sorry, not the best welcome I agree, but you will find you have lots of clients in the area, good luck with you venture

[Keef]

Mark Wrote:

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> is there anything other than "shockingly stupid

> "psychics""? ;-)

Unfortunately yes, which is how they con so much money out of people! I have no problem whatsoever with alternative therapies, but people talking to the dead for you.... I can't prove it's bo!!ocks, but I just can't believe it.

[Jeremy]

"western medicine does serve a purpose to humankind (but it does not get to the root of the problem)"

That's a sweeping generalisation, and in many cases, not accurate.

"So if you negative thoughts can affect your physical body then why cannot reiki healing, affirmations, visualisations or meditation, massage also serve a purpose in assisting you to good health if the person is wanting and believing in change"

This sounds awfully close to admission of the placebo affect.

[capt_birdseye]

I would agree with the Independent's "shooting fish in a barrel" comment with regards to last night's programme. I think most people would agree that Astrology, psychics etc are pure baloney. However, perfectly exemplified by hyounan's recent post, there is a growing trend in "alternative" therapies. It should be interesting to hear what Dawkins has to say about it all next week and it would be nice to have some intelligent responses to his arguments. MW74, this is your area, put aside your dislike for the man's tone of voice, watch the programme this time and tell us why he's wrong.

[Huguenot]

I don't know how people manage to create and sustain this myth of the orient. There's nothing particularly western about materialism, acquisitiveness, tyranny and spite. There's nothing particularly eastern about mystical healing powers making blind men see again.

A lack of economic resource has more recently left sizeable numbers of people sitting round all day with nothing to do in the east rather than the west, and the west suffered less recently with military superpowers trying to keep us stoned into acquiesence under threat of artillery attacks. Nothing to do with pointy beards and pictograms.

Get a flight (or a train) and go see for yourself. It's shockingly 'real'.

[david_carnell]

hyounan Wrote:

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> I will probably get a backlash with this... ! ;-)

Welcome to the EDF. Perhaps this was not the best place for a welcome as I have to rpfoundly disagree with your view.

> You know, topics like these are always

> controversial with no right or wrong answer.

Well yes actually there is. When one is backed up by facts and science it is correct. When the other is hearsay, superstition and folklore it is wrong.

>I also think eastern philosophy is

> just as powerful and can be an addition.

Really? Is this not just as daft as saying you worship the sun god or the tree god or any other pagan symbolism that is now roundly discarded by everyone in the west for what it is....nonsense. Becuase it is from the oh so "mystical" east is is somehow revered. In the "east" they also think eating ground tiger penis will give you sexual prowess. I find viagra would be more advisable and less harmful to the wildlife.

>So if you negative

> thoughts can affect your physical body then why

> cannot reiki healing, affirmations, visualisations

> or meditation, massage also serve a purpose in

> assisting you to good health if the person is

> wanting and believing in change.

Again, this a recycled hash of the same argument MadWorld74 was purporting.Basically it boils down to only working if you believe in it. Therefore it is nothing more than an expensive sugar-pill that is now a whole industry worth millions of pounds.

I am sorry to have fisked your first ever post and don't want this to be personal but I've expressed my views on this clearly and have yet to really see a convincing argument to the contrary. None of these treatments will submit themselves to proper scientific trials for a simple reason....they know they will fail. This is not some conspiracy by the medical establishment to stop non-pharma based treatments being used in the NHS but merely the triumph of rationality and science over the irrational and dubious.

[Huguenot]

Naughty fisker.. you know it only ends up in tit for tat fisking and threads full of junk that are no pleasure to read ;-)

Please don't rise to the bait...

[MadWorld74]

Reiki and all other forms of althernative/holistic treatments exist to help those who choose to try them. You will never come to the likes of me or hyounan for a treatment. You have made it clear that you are not able to understand the Spirituality of life and therefore you have made your decission to never understand anything but scientific apects of medicine. Science is nature and nature is a science. Some sit back and see the bigger picture. Others choose to sit tight in their box and do as they are told. Spirituality is not a medical science so it can never be submitted to 'proper' scientific trials. It is what it is. Unfortuantly you will never feel it's power.

[mockney piers]

Hey there hyounan.

Welcome to East Dulwich and welcome to the forum. I spotted your earlier post advertising your services and did think it pretty unfortunate timing. This isn't a usual topic of discussion but everyone does like a nice debate every now and then.

This one was pretty entrenched from the beginning really, but don't let that put you off.

It's a very friendly area, and I'm sure your average lurker is much more MadWorld74 than they are the like of boring old me, and I echo Mark in wishing you the best of British luck.

[hyounan]

:)

Hey there Mark

Debates are healthy so I too welcome the challenge.

Don't worry, Ive got a thick skin and my partner Dave despite complaining that I don't give him enough reiki or massages, thinks what I do is 'mumbo jumbo'!!! So Im fully aware of the back lash...

Oh well... life goes on and Im happy living in East Dulwich!

thanks for the east dulwich 'welcome' iniation guys!

[hyounan]

I think you have hit the nail on the head - 'it only works when you believe in it'.

right on there matey..

[Mark]

I believe I will win the lottery tomorrow (I hope you all like Refreshers)

[capt_birdseye]

MW74,

I've simply asked for some informed arguments in order to make someone who may be sceptical reconsider. Your approach to debating seems to involve getting stroppy with people who disagree with you, making assumptions about them and telling them to "go and check their share indexes" etc.

[MadWorld74]

Mark...stop it you naughty thing.

[MadWorld74]

what? and people posting threads on here telling me what I do/stand for, is mumbo jumbo and basically a load of b*llocks in so many words...?? is that not an assumption on ME?! too right get back to your share indexes.

[capt_birdseye]

So disprove them then, that's what a debate's for.

Why is it OK for you to poke fun at bankers but not OK for others to poke fun at Reiki?

[MadWorld74]

hmmmmmm bankers don't help others through times of trouble or improve the quality of people's lives.(depending on your view towards money that is!) Seriously, I'm not about to prove myself on this forum. I belive in what I do, so do the people I've treated and that's enough for me. :)