Gay Wedding Cake Case

[Loz]

Is it me, or has this case potentially opened a very big can of worms?

I could fully understand that, had it been a real gay wedding cake requested (as I originally thought) then finding a case of discrimination would be obvious.

But this was different. This was a request for a cake to bear a political message that the owners found offensive. But it was still seen as discrimination. What will we see next - a bakery owner by black people forced to create a cake with a white supremacist message? A Jewish bakery forced to bake a cake bearing a 'vote Corbyn' message?

Not sure we've heard the last of this one.

[titch juicy]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Is it me, or has this case potentially opened a

> very big can of worms?

>

> I could fully understand that, had it been a real

> gay wedding cake requested (as I originally

> thought) then finding a case of discrimination

> would be obvious.

>

> But this was different. This was a request for a

> cake to bear a political message that the owners

> found offensive. But it was still seen as

> discrimination. What will we see next - a bakery

> owner by black people forced to create a cake with

> a white supremacist message? A Jewish bakery

> forced to bake a cake bearing a 'vote Corbyn'

> message?

>

> Not sure we've heard the last of this one.

The examples you give are promoting race hate. The other isn't.

[peckham_ryu]

Does seem excessive that the law feels the need to intervene. The bakery had nothing nice to say ? the law apparently doesn't afford them the right to say nothing at all. It's not like they have banned anyone from buying their soda farls or gur cakes.

I even admire them a bit for standing by their convictions, however silly the convictions are. They could have just refused the order giving any number of other excuses (e.g. We don't like your requested design / we're busy"). Being honest instead is an honourable offence really.

[miga]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> A bakery owner by black people forced to create a cake with a white supremacist message?

> A Jewish bakery forced to bake a cake bearing a 'vote Corbyn' message?

Do you really think these two are examples of the same type of thing?

[BrandNewGuy]

Peter Tatchell has changed his mind about the case:

"There was never an intention that this law should compel people to promote political ideas with which they disagreed."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/feb/01/gay-cake-row-i-changed-my-mind-ashers-bakery-freedom-of-conscience-religion

[heartblock]

A Jewish bakery could refuse to bake a cake that says Vote Corbyn as this would not be illegal discrimination due to race/ gender/ religion/ sexual orientation, so if they wished they could say no and despite what the Daily Fail says the Jewish population in the U.K. do have a range of political beliefs. http://www.jlm.org.uk/cable_street_80.

If a bakery made a cake that prompted race hatred it would be against the law, so they could also refuse.

No can of worms.

[red devil]

titch juicy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Loz Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> > What will we see next - a bakery

> > owner by black people forced to create a cake

> > with a white supremacist message? A Jewish bakery

> > forced to bake a cake bearing a 'vote Corbyn'

> > message?

> >

> > Not sure we've heard the last of this one.

>

> The examples you give are promoting race hate. The

> other isn't.

Since when was saying 'Vote Corbyn' promoting race hate?...

[Jeremy]

My gut reaction was that it was the right decision. They weren't being asked to endorse the message, just reproduce it on a cake. A victory for common sense over prejudice and superstition.

But it does beg a wider question - should a print facility, sign fabricator, advertising company, or indeed a baker be obliged to accept any order within certain parameters (e.g. it's legal, not intrinsically offensive, etc)?

[Sue]

What was interesting for me was that the case showed up my own prejudices.

Until I saw a picture of the bakers on Facebook, on hearing them described as anti-gay Christians I had assumed that they were grizzly old people.

Just goes to show.

But from a legal point of view, apart from anything else, it seems to me to have been the right decision.

[BrandNewGuy]

I think I'm with Peter Tatchell. Here's a closer analogy I think: a white baker refuses to make a cake for two black customers which says "Support Black Lives Matter" on it. Is the baker guilty of race discrimination? I don't think so ? after all, it's perfectly possible to be black and be vehenmently opposed to Black Lives Matter. In the same way, it's perfectly possible to be gay and opposed to gay marriage. What if it had been two gay bakers who were anti-gay marriage and who refused to make the cake...?

[DaveR]

I haven't read the full judgment but I understand that the key points were that (i) making the cake did not imply endorsement of the message (ii) the business discriminated between messages they were willing to put on cakes and those they weren't, based on their own beliefs and (iii) the message they refused to put on was supportive of a position likely to be strongly associated with a protected characteristic i.e. being gay makes you very likely to support gay marriage.

There will be lots of other circumstances that look the same but don't fit with these points so may be decided differently. However, it does (it seems to me) draw a fairly bright line between commercial activities and other parts of life - when you are engaged in the former you are very likely to have to put your beliefs to one side and deal with the customer.

[Mick Mac]

I had the pleasure of being brought up surrounded by these religious freaks, who live in the dark ages and think that religion should be the law.

Whilst this case seems relatively benign it represents a much greater underlying problem and that's why the case is an important marker and the right decision

You can't be open for business and only provide a service to those of the same belief as yourself - otherwise it's the road to lawful discrimination.

[LondonMix]

My thoughts exactly, particularly the example of hate speech which no one, black, white or otherwise would legally be compelled to replicate.

miga Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Loz Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > A bakery owner by black people forced to create

> a cake with a white supremacist message?

> > A Jewish bakery forced to bake a cake bearing a

> 'vote Corbyn' message?

>

> Do you really think these two are examples of the

> same type of thing?

[LondonMix]

Agree with DaveR and MickMack on this as well.

Religious beliefs can and have been used for all sort of indefensible prejudices, including interracial marriage not that long ago.

[*Bob*]

What if I wanted to make a wedding cake depicting Jeremy Corbyn burning bibles and fellating a horse whilst a group of blacked-up Jehovah's Witnesses egged them on? Would a lesbian baker be entitled to object? Think about it..

[alice]

I did. Now I can't stop.

[Nigello]

I am thinking about it. A lot. So much so, I've decided to depict it via the medium of tapestry.

[Salsaboy]

Would they be free range or organic eggs *Bob*?