Say NO to squirrel meat on the menu

[Alec John Moore]

A quick look at Viva's website shows that they are against eating meat (including fish) and dairy products since their production causes environmental destruction, damages human health and contributes to global hunger, as well as inflicting immense suffering on billions of animals across the world. She's not coming from a vegan/vegetarian point of view but Felicity Lawrence's investigations into the global nature of industrialised food production - Not on the Label and Eat Your Heart Out - are quite salutary when it comes to thinking about what we eat. What I find most interesting about this thread is what I think of as the tyranny of the meat eater. I'm sure it's quite a common social phenomenon that when an alternative view is expressed then the majority demonstrate their intolerance of it, quickly dismiss the point of view and begin to turn the thread into their own self referential banter.

[DJKillaQueen]

I think the OPs focus on Squirrels rather than the 'global' point Viva make is the flaw of the thread tbh and the lounge tends to be the place of jolly banter with the drawing room for more serious discussion.

Having said that, I don't agree with a view that eating meat/ fish/ dairy products are bad for human health. Humans have used animals for centuries and survived perfectly well and there is a theory that eating meat is what allowed for the evolution of mankind from ape, as protein from meat is thought to be the factor that enabled the brain to grow.

There is no doubt that some of the methods used to rear and produce meat and fish and some dairy products are not only inhumane but damaging to the environment. For me that's a seperate issue that most (including non vegetarians) would have an ear for.

As for the consumption of meat and diary, it's just not true to say that in itself damages human health. Over-consumption (especially in processed forms) is unhleathy yes, but not when eating as part of a balanced diet. The benefits of fish especially are well documented.

[SeanMacGabhann]

But what wasn't expressed was "an alternative view" - ie the problem with meat eating. That is a discussion worth having and if self-referential banter is a problem there is always The Drawing Room

What was expressed was some random comment about squirrels on menus and being full of poison - so far from the truth it was bound to attract derision

But yes I'm a meat eater, yes I'm interested in the impact it has and rather than being intolerant I'm open to the facts

[Alec John Moore]

The facts are always hard to agree on, in my opinion, when dealing with such an emotive and socially/economically/historically complicated subject as what we eat. The OP was clearly expressing a view when s/he says s/he is "against killing rats by the same (poisoned with warfarin) method." S/he goes on to opine that "If these companies continue to sell squirrel meat, the only message they are giving out, is that they are happy to have the blood of a beautiful wild animal on their hands, for the sake of a few quid." But, it's easy to respond to a minority "view" with playful banter, it seems. I think the appropriateness or otherwise of the section of the forum point is somewhat spurious. Why wasn't it pointed out earlier by the more knowledgeable posters on the forum?

[Jah Lush]

"the only message they are giving out, is that they are happy to have the blood of a beautiful wild animal on their hands, for the sake of a few quid."

A typically emotive response from a veggie/vegan. You could say they same thing about any other type of meat that is slaughtered for our consumption. I'm happy to eat meat and have no qualms about it just as long the animal in question hasn't suffered and is killed humanely. If it tastes nice I'll continue to enjoy it.

[RosieH]

Why wasn't what pointed out AJM? I'm not quite sure I follow.

I thought the points about poison and clubbing were spurious, but in honesty, was too lazy to bother looking it up. So I asked the question of the OP and it wasn't answered. Sean also asked a question of the OP that went unanswered.

If a serious discussion is called for, then people should be prepared to enter into that discussion.

[Brendan]

Indeed. All you more knowledgeable posters, shame on you.

Shame, shame on you.

[SeanMacGabhann]

Why wasn't what pointed out? And who are "the more knowledgeable" posters? Knowledgeable about what? No-one knows everything

Facts are bound to be hard to agree on if they are confused with opinions and emotions. What point are you trying to make by quoting those points?

[Ladymuck]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> No-one knows everything

I beg to differ.

(Joke :)))

[Alec John Moore]

"the appropriateness or otherwise of the section of the forum " could have been pointed out earlier by people who post regularly on EDF and are more familiar with forum etiquette than I assume the OP to be. Instead, the chat followed The Lounge rules and became sa eries of self referential jokes, mostly. That's fair enough I suppose since whoever posts on a thread or starts a new one has to follow the norms.

I'm trying to say that I saw the OP's OP as an alternative view that was not taken seriously. I also see the position held by the OP as a minority view. Minority views should be respected, even if they appear to some to be based on personal opionion driven by emotional responses to facts.

It is also possible, but we may never know, that the OP was intimidated by the type and level of reponse to his/her OP. Still, that's conjecture. Perhaps s/he got bored.

[Marmora Man]

I'll respect any view that is expressed clearly and coherently, but a raggle taggle rambling post will not win me over or persuade me to take he views presented seriously.

The OP was such a post - I'm not surprised at the responses posted.

You want serious - be serious.

[SeanMacGabhann]

I would suggest that if anybody wants their opinion treated with more respect, there are better ways of doing it than starting apublic thread telling people what they do is WRONG

I would also suggest that before flippancy set in, several people made non-confrontational points and asked some genuine questions. These were unanswered

To me it felt that we weren't being given an alternative viewpoint but were being hectored

The OP has several posts under their belt so they were treated like an adult and as if they knew there way around the forum. There is nothing wrong with starting the thread in the Lounge so there was no reason to point to it's appropriatness or lack of

If I was to start a thread saying we are all living in sin and the only way to repent is to worship Airwaves Cherry Gum, it would probably be a minority view. It probably woldn't get any respect from people. And people would be right

Respect is earned and spent, not given to any wild opinion

[Jah Lush]

I concur Sean.

[Jah Lush]

Oops!

[silverfox]

Sean said:

"...we are all living in sin and the only way to repent is to worship Airwaves Cherry Gum..."

A religious movement based on mastication would presumably include both meat-eaters and vegetarians and even squirrels come to think of it.

[louisiana]

+1 Sean, Marmora Man etc etc.

The OP failed to string a reasoned argument together, but jumbled up a bunch of sentences which attempted to push emotional buttons rather than demonstrate facts. The OP then followed up with random unrelated statements (for example on fois gras), rather than addressing any issues raised.

If a poster cannot marshal facts for an argument, but merely aims to manipulate, he/she cannot expect any consequent 'argument' to be taken seriously.

[Alec John Moore]

Perhaps a kinder approach would be to direct posters with fewer debating skills to another section of the forum. Or, perhaps they are necessary to stimulate a bit of banter.

Post number 2 in this thread: "Mmmm, wonder what badger tastes like."

[RosieH]

but posts 3 and 4?

[b-fly]

Till there are enough chickens in the world I ain't eat a squirrel ;-)

[SeanMacGabhann]

I hear where you are coming from AJM, but to be fair it has only become apparent over time that (it would seem) this paticular poster lacks debating skills. In which case The Drawing Room won't help because whilst the idea is to remove flippancy, people become more fierce in their arguing

But if that is the case then maybe registering and posting on a forum where hundreds of people clearly debate, banter, make eejits of themselves, enlighten may not be the best pastime

But maybe they don't lack debating skills? Maybe they are a guerilla poster and have achieved all they wanted?

[louisiana]

Alec John Moore Wrote:

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> Perhaps a kinder approach would be to direct

> posters with fewer debating skills to another

> section of the forum. Or, perhaps they are

> necessary to stimulate a bit of banter.

Or, if individuals would like to develop solid arguments that will convince others, perhaps they should learn a little more about the things they wish to discuss, they should assess the evidence and contrasting views etc. You will never swim the Channel if you never leave the paddling pool.

[Jah Lush]

Word!

[Alec John Moore]

To continue the analogy, it is more like shark-infested waters sometimes. I suppose my point is that, without an apparently cogent, informed, researched, logically reasoned argument, we allowed a potentially interesting topic to descend rapidly into banter - predominantly. And, just across the Channel, they eat horse flesh, apparently.

[SeanMacGabhann]

nothing stopping that same interesting topic being ressurected by people with better debating skills is there?

Shark infested waters is also a bit harsh - many people get a lot of help and support from this place - but then again many people tend not to jump out of a helicopter with lacerated feet into unknown waters

or something

[DJKillaQueen]

To be fair, there are always going to be people with better debating skills, more facts, better research and so on in any group of people. And you open yourself up to that when posting in any forum.