An unusual letter from King's College Hospital

[Keef]

Brilliant *bob*, I was thinking similar earlier, but you just do these things better than I would (tu)

[Mick Mac]

Word ?

[intexasatthe moment]

Killaqueen - thank you for your posts ,your research and for your interest .

I'm not up to this level of debate ,but I'm very glad that you are .

Not everyone is so sanguine about receiving cold calls for money - yes I know ( because I've read it ) that this letter didn't directly ask for money .

But my mother wasn't interested in foresenically analysing it - she got the message ,it was about "King's College Hospital Charity ".

And she certainly didn't appreciate the fine distinction that the letter was from the Chief Executive rather than the Fund raising department .

She's recently had two stays in Kings ,they were both deeply unpleasant ,some of the treatment she received fell short of what I am sure are Kings high standards and has had knock on effects on her health since she left hospital .

She was concerned to get this letter , wondered why she was sent it , and was anxious about where and how they got her address .She's elderly ,ill and brought up in different times .

I suspect that she is not alone . People who use on line forums may be less anxious than other demographics ( if that's the right term) about their details being used and more sanguine about perceived levels of privacy .

[JohnL]

I am an old student of Kings College (not the hospital part) and for years I got calls from students and letters from staff asking for sponsorship/money. I never minded them doing it, I liked the college, but could never really afford to give them anything, so they stopped.

I think Kings has just taken over part of Somerset House - They didn't get that by being shy with money requests :)

I think Universities have been doing this for a long time, so a hospital that is part of a university chasing ex-patients isn't that different. Never feel obliged - take it as a compliment.

[sofaRunner]

Timster Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> PS I am surprised no one has objected to the plan

> to put mugshots up in the A&E waiting room of

> every recent patient that has refused to make a

> donation.

tee hee heee!!

[pk]

intexasatthe moment Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Killaqueen - thank you for your posts ,your

> research and for your interest .

> I'm not up to this level of debate ,but I'm very

> glad that you are .

> Not everyone is so sanguine about receiving cold

> calls for money - yes I know ( because I've read

> it ) that this letter didn't directly ask for

> money .

> But my mother wasn't interested in foresenically

> analysing it - she got the message ,it was about

> "King's College Hospital Charity ".

> And she certainly didn't appreciate the fine

> distinction that the letter was from the Chief

> Executive rather than the Fund raising department

> .

> She's recently had two stays in Kings ,they were

> both deeply unpleasant ,some of the treatment she

> received fell short of what I am sure are Kings

> high standards and has had knock on effects on her

> health since she left hospital .

> She was concerned to get this letter , wondered

> why she was sent it , and was anxious about where

> and how they got her address .She's elderly ,ill

> and brought up in different times .

> I suspect that she is not alone . People who use

> on line forums may be less anxious than other

> demographics ( if that's the right term) about

> their details being used and more sanguine about

> perceived levels of privacy .

how did you help her try to understand what had happened? does she now believe that nothing sinister went on?

[dulwichmum]

Sick elderly people can be very vulnerable. A GP friend of mine from another EU member state tells me, that where he works, if you do not "bribe" doctors when you are in certain hospitals, you do not get good quality care. I should imagine that this country is not unique, particularly in our current financial climate.

Imagine now if you are an elderly person from that country, you are sick and vulnerable (I know that Sean may be finding this discussion scary so perhaps he should not read any further) and you get this letter from Kings. You may skim read it, you may not be wearing your glasses, English may not be your first language... Now you may think that if you do not donate, your care may not be forthcoming, next time you are sick.

People may not like to acknowledge this, but Kings is a hospital, financed by the taxpayer. Our sick are entitled to care, or they were the last time I looked. Nurses are not saints, doctors not angels, they are professionals paid for by our tax. There are other ways to raise money. We need to prioritize as a nation. What can we afford, how much more tax should we pay? This fund raising effort is clumsy and crass and it was badly done.

There was no box to tick, this is junk mail and they have no right to access my data to waste tax payers money on the stamp and envelope.

[intexasatthe moment]

pk - I told her it was just a standard letter sent to everyone and took it away as quickly as I could .

I told her not to worry about it .

I'm not sure if she's reassured .

She has lots of other things to worry about which I think are probably occupying her more .

[SeanMacGabhann]

This suggests where the actuality is then ITATM - between your mother being largely unaware of the letter and Dulwichmum's fictional Greek woman (who if she is real would have seen much much worse in her life) it seems this is all rather small beer for people to be getting upset about (eg talking about provacy of homes being invaded)

[intexasatthe moment]

Sean - she wasn't largely unaware of the letter .She had it open ,on her lap and was talking to me about it before I'd even closed the front door .

Just because she has a number of problems and concerns doesn't mean that it's fine or "small beer " for her to get landed with another one .

In fact ,given her age and health ,it makes it worse .She has lost a lot of independence and what she loves most - the sense that she is contolling her own life .She doesn't like cold calls - it makes her anxious that people have her details and contact her .

[SeanMacGabhann]

ITATM - it seems churlish to argue with you as now you have involved your mother - any argument I put forward will sound insensitive. But it doesn't mean that what you are saying proves anything

[Jeremy]

I don't think that people should stop publicising charities or asking for donations because of a small minority, who - due to bad experiences or health issues - may mis-interpret it.

People think their privacy has been invaded? Is this seriously the first time you've received unsolicited post? Get real!

There are other ways to raise money. We need to prioritize as a nation. What can we afford, how much more tax should we pay?

Are you saying you are against hospitals asking for charity at all? The thing is, no amount of money is ever "enough". We could probably increase the NHS budget by 50%, and they still wouldn't have the resources to provide the "ideal" service

[RosieH]

And I would be really interested to know how many people complaining about fundraising would be happy to pay significantly higher taxes to avoid the need for such charities in the first place. Or have been up in arms when NICE says it can't fund every expensive medicine going.

[mycroft]

Good point Rosie. I think it is quite sad that in amongst the very self-righteous, fault-finding posts on this site that nobody has referred back to the point made by the lady from King's; this charity invests ?3m per year in grants to the hospital, it has just paid out ?1m for a vital CT scanner for A@E and ?9m to re-build the children's hospital. I wonder if any other organization making that level of investment into the community would come in for this amount of abuse and criticism if it offered to tell us more about it's work?

[intexasatthe moment]

Sean I appreciate your sentiments .

The thing is ,this is an online forum ,this thread is a debate and we all have different views .

But ,in this case ,for me ,it wasn't just a debating contest and examination of the finer points of the DPA - it involved a real person . I think the reason I brought my mother into it was because so many people seemed unable to see that just because theywere unfazed by their details being used like this ,other people may genuinely mind .

Kings aren't ,technically ,breaking any laws but imo my mother's comcerns are still understandable and legitimate .

[dulwichmum]

Intexasatthe moment - That is exactly the point I am trying to make - just because the fit and healthy, articulate and feisty people on this forum do not feel fazed by a letter landing on their mat, it doesnt mean that everyone else will feel the same way.

Kings should not be contacting vulnerable people without their expressed permission. Our names and addresses are for their use to contact us with regard to appointments etc. I have no problem at all with them raising money through charitable means, but this is unfair and badly thought through.

[mycroft]

Glad to see that the piont about the chaities millions of pound of investment into our community has been ignored again then. How sad.

[katie1997]

*Bob* Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> This morning, I received a letter from a man

> called Mike.

>

> He is offering to clean my carpets - for half

> price. After a long talk with my girlfriend - and

> some heated conversations with friends and family

> - we have agreed to put his letter into the blue

> recycling bag.

>

> I'm just 'putting this out there' in case anyone

> else is currently working themselves into a

> similarly pointless lather by way of a clipboard,

> hi-vis jacket, biro and google-powered

> deconstruction of privacy law - to no particular

> useful end whatsoever.

Absolutely brilliant.

You could cut and paste that last para to any other thread esp 'google-powered deconstruction of [insert topic of your choice eg. dubious "science"]'.

Everyone's an "expert" with a search engine to hand...

[Timster]

Where is the strange parallel universe people live where you need permission to use someone's address to write to them??

It reminds me of the story a few years ago of an elderly couple who had stopped paying their gas bills during the winter and were cut off. British Gas didn't pass on their details to social services because they were worried it would have been a breach of Data Protection law (it wouldn't) and they were found dead in their home of hyperthermia. Date Protection laws are widely misunderstood and there is a peculiar jobsworth tendency in this country to think they apply in all sorts of circumstances where they do not.

Elderly and vulnerable people in my experience get confused and worried about all sorts of letters and phonecalls they receive. I am afraid the world has to carry on in any event.

The other side of this story is that someone who had a good experience of King's receives the letter and decides to donate some money. Money which Kings might not have received otherwise and which are they able to put to good use.

Please please carry on sending these letters and don't be put off by a few people's warped ideas of how a hospital trust should behave.

Also, why hasn't anyone targeted Great Ormond Street for similar abuse? Or is it okay for them to raise money because they only look after children and get visits from Ronan Keating.

[Keef]

Speaking of Great Ormond Street, I remember there being a great concern over the loss they'd suffer when the copyright to Peter Pan expired. Figures have never been released on how much the royalties have been worth to them, but the concern seemed to suggest that it would make quite a difference to the hospital's running.

[Twirly]

But it didn't expire - there was a bill to grant copyright in perpetuity (more or less). Wiki link here

I don't think that anyone objects to King's trying to raise money through charitable donation, just the manner in which a group of people, myself included, have been targeted. I still have mixed feelings about it, though am not overly bothered. I can see why it might upset some people though. I think it?s better than the ?charity muggers? though, whom I personally loathe. I would never sign up to anything that anyone approached me on the street about, as a matter of principle. I guess that they work though, as the charities continue to use them.

I wonder if there is an approach that people might find more appropriate for King?s to use? (And it might make for a slightly more constructive discussion!) I wondered about the handing out of leaflets about the charity?s work when someone goes in for an outpatients appointment, with a form on the leaflet to register your interest if you are. It would have the same effect in terms of targeting the hospital?s users, but without using any form of personal data or contacting potentially vulnerable people in their own homes, and it would save on postage. The only downside from the hospital?s point of view is that you may only be able to target outpatients effectively, as inpatients might not be in a fit state to receive the information and act on it, depending on how ill they are, and it probably isn?t fair to ask staff to make a judgement as to whether to pass the leaflet on. Unless there is some sort of information pack that patients are given on discharge about their future care and it could be included in that (I have no idea, as haven?t been in hospital as an inpatient since I was a child).

Any other ideas?

[ianr]

Twirly, you've reminded me that things could be a lot worse. Nurses as in-house chuggers?

And thanks for the interesting note on Peter Pan.

[ImpetuousVrouw]

This method of fundraising leaves a very bad taste in my mouth.

Apart from the dubious way Kings have tried to get round their DPA obligations by using the CEO instead of the charity to send the mailshot, I am concerned that the funding for Kings (and the NHS in general) may move towards a user pays method instead of the free at point of delivery method paid for out of general taxation.

If the people who use the service are seen as fair game in a search for funding after they have received treatment, who is to say that a move towards a charge before treatment will not be something coming in the near future.

While some of you on here may say, 'fair enough, the user should pay', not everyone who needs medical treatment has the means to pay for it, which is why we have the NHS in the first place.

This mailshot seems like a faux pas in terms of Kings PR, but may be more serious for the future of a free NHS if accepted as normal practice.

[Jeremy]

I think you've made a huge leap from appeals for charity to charging for treatment.

I don't think there has ever been an implication that people who have received treatment *should* pay. This is not a step towards privatisation.

[ImpetuousVrouw]

Maybe not, but it still feels like a step in the wrong direction to me.