La Bonne Bouffe

[JoeLeg]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> JoeLeg Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Louisa, I could dismantle your post in detail

> and

> > show how you have no idea why you're talking

> > about, but it'd be like shooting fish in a

> > barrel.

>

> Patronising and unduly condescending.

And also accurate. Plus I'm mainly just following your lead in being condescending towards a local business that has chosen to use authentic nomenclature.

>

> > But answer me this:

> >

> > 1) What is the wholesale cost of a portion of

> > snails?

>

> Depends whether they're sleeping, prepared, or

> frozen. Also depends on 'type' of snail used. And

> what you consider to be a portion? Someone has

> already mentioned the ?2 mark for one snail at

> restaurant price.

So you don't know the answer.

>

> > 2) What is the wholesale cost of a duck leg?

>

> ?4.90 is one price example I found, but again are

> we talking organic, free range etc are we buying

> just the one leg or buying in bulk?

So again, you don't know the answer. I will tell you that your quote of ?4:90 is way, way in excess of current costs.

>

> > 3) What is the difference between Bonne's GP on

> > the snails and their GP on the duck confit?

>

> At no point did I bring Bonne's into this debate,

> you did.

Well, firstly this whole thread is about Bonne's, so I'm not quite sure why that surprises you. You're making the assertion that they shouldn't be using the term escargot because of the cost issue, and I'm pointing out that to back up that assertion you'd have to prove that the snails are a moneyspinner over and above the confit.

And secondly, you've avoided the question. You haven't shown that. You plainly don't have any idea of the costs involved.

>

> > 4) Why does that not justify calling snails

> > escargot?m

>

> It justifies not calling them escargot because of

> the price differential.

Again, prove the price differential.

>

> > Your position basically seems to be that a

> place

> > can use authentic, linguistically-correct terms

> > for dishes so long as they aren't expensive.

>

> That's correct.

That's some rancid inverse snobbery right there.

>

> > Indian menu's show how that isn't a viable

> point,

> > but you use them as an example because you say

> > they aren't overpriced.

>

> They usually aren't overpriced. Correct.

So if a restaurant charges what you perceive to be reasonable prices, only then can they can use authentic nomenclature? Do you think there are no high-GP dishes in Indian restaurants? You reckon they all hit bang on 68% GP, say? Do you know what a 68% GP is?

>

> So you think snails are

> > overpriced, but the duck isn't?

>

> Indeed.

As I'm sure your teachers said to you, could you please show your working?

>

> But then you have

> > to show that the GP on snails exceeds that of

> the

> > duck to support your point.

> >

> > I'm waiting...

>

> I think I just did, didn't I? Read above.

No. No you haven't. Not even close. I asked you to show that the GP Bonne enjoy on escargot significantly exceeds that they they make on duck confit. You haven't done that.

I find it hilarious that you think a local place should be pilloried for using authentic wording across it's menu when you think it's charging over the odds for something, yet when challenged you can provide no evidence whatsoever to back up your snobbish and outlandish claim other than what seems to be "because I believe it so".

[Jeremy]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I presume you mean me? I'm sick to death of being

> vilified for having an opinion about anything on

> this forum. I won't say anything from now on.

Yes. But I don't think I was vilifying you. Suggesting that a) restaurants call them "escargot" to achieve a higher price and b) people wouldn't eat them if they were listed as "snails"... is antagonistic and a little confrontational... no? It was not meant as an insult.

> Someone has already mentioned the ?2 mark for one snail at

> restaurant price.

A figure seemingly plucked out of thin air, which is then being used as the basis for an argument (sound familiar?). I reckon ?8-?10 pounds for 6 is typical.

[Shaggy]

How do they source them?

They come from a snail farm in Burgundy, like all escargot de Bourgogne.

The clue is in the title.

DulwichFox Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Louisa Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > They're basically slugs that happen to have a

> > home.

> >

> > Louisa.

>

> Yes.. and who would eat Slugs..? Even with Hot

> Garlic Butter.. :)

>

> Most restaurants if not all do not call them

> 'Snails' They refer to them as Escargot" so it

> sounds posh.

>

> .. and justifies places charging 2 quid each for

> them. ( not quoting La B.B price)

>

> Foxy

[KidKruger]

"How do they source them?

They come from a snail farm in Burgundy, like all escargot de Bourgogne.

The clue is in the title"

Oh I get it. Using the posh expression 'Bourgogne' to describe an ordinary French region.

No doubt to justify the massively inflated costs of menu items !

[Louisa]

JoeLeg Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Louisa Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > JoeLeg Wrote:

> >

> --------------------------------------------------

>

> > -----

> > > Louisa, I could dismantle your post in detail

> > and

> > > show how you have no idea why you're talking

> > > about, but it'd be like shooting fish in a

> > > barrel.

> >

> > Patronising and unduly condescending.

>

>

> And also accurate. Plus I'm mainly just following

> your lead in being condescending towards a local

> business that has chosen to use authentic

> nomenclature.

I have at no point singled out one restaurant as you keep suggesting, it was more a general point about French restaurants and Escargot, following on from a slightly off topic point made by someone else.

>

>

> >

> > > But answer me this:

> > >

> > > 1) What is the wholesale cost of a portion of

> > > snails?

> >

> > Depends whether they're sleeping, prepared, or

> > frozen. Also depends on 'type' of snail used.

> And

> > what you consider to be a portion? Someone has

> > already mentioned the ?2 mark for one snail at

> > restaurant price.

>

>

> So you don't know the answer.

I don't know the wholesale prices but a little google research tells me the wholesale costs isn't even close to the price they're sold at. I also refer you to Jeremy's reply to me. ?8-?10 for 6 snails. That sounds considerably more expensive than Duck Confit (not that an entree is comparable to a main, as you full well know).

>

> >

> > > 2) What is the wholesale cost of a duck leg?

> >

> > ?4.90 is one price example I found, but again

> are

> > we talking organic, free range etc are we

> buying

> > just the one leg or buying in bulk?

>

> So again, you don't know the answer. I will tell

> you that your quote of ?4:90 is way, way in excess

> of current costs.

Examples?

>

> >

> > > 3) What is the difference between Bonne's GP

> on

> > > the snails and their GP on the duck confit?

> >

> > At no point did I bring Bonne's into this

> debate,

> > you did.

>

> Well, firstly this whole thread is about Bonne's,

> so I'm not quite sure why that surprises you.

> You're making the assertion that they shouldn't be

> using the term escargot because of the cost issue,

> and I'm pointing out that to back up that

> assertion you'd have to prove that the snails are

> a moneyspinner over and above the confit.

> And secondly, you've avoided the question. You

> haven't shown that. You plainly don't have any

> idea of the costs involved.

> >

I refer you more generally to Jeremy's response to me, the snails are clearly a money spinner at those quoted average prices. Again of course, this is reference to the general cost of Escargot and nothing to do with Bonne's, a restaurant I am very much looking forward to visiting in the future, where I won't be ordering Escargot, but something else.

> > > 4) Why does that not justify calling snails

> > > escargot?m

> >

> > It justifies not calling them escargot because

> of

> > the price differential.

>

> Again, prove the price differential.

The differential is available via google and other sources, based on other posters it would seem clear that Duck is indeed far better value for money as it is a main course and more filling.

> >

> > > Your position basically seems to be that a

> > place

> > > can use authentic, linguistically-correct

> terms

> > > for dishes so long as they aren't expensive.

> >

> > That's correct.

>

> That's some rancid inverse snobbery right there.

It isn't any sort of snobbery, it's my personal observation as to why restaurants use certain linguistic terms for basic entrees on the menu.

> >

> > > Indian menu's show how that isn't a viable

> > point,

> > > but you use them as an example because you

> say

> > > they aren't overpriced.

> >

> > They usually aren't overpriced. Correct.

>

> So if a restaurant charges what you perceive to be

> reasonable prices, only then can they can use

> authentic nomenclature?

No I didn't say that, I said that would be more acceptable. More time and effort has gone into the dish for a start.

Do you think there are no

> high-GP dishes in Indian restaurants? You reckon

> they all hit bang on 68% GP, say? Do you know what

> a 68% GP is?

The GP is the mark up I'm presuming?

> >

> > So you think snails are

> > > overpriced, but the duck isn't?

> >

> > Indeed.

>

> As I'm sure your teachers said to you, could you

> please show your working?

I have! One is a starter, one is a main. Make of that what you will.

> >

> > But then you have

> > > to show that the GP on snails exceeds that of

> > the

> > > duck to support your point.

> > >

> > > I'm waiting...

> >

> > I think I just did, didn't I? Read above.

>

> No. No you haven't. Not even close. I asked you to

> show that the GP Bonne enjoy on escargot

> significantly exceeds that they they make on duck

> confit. You haven't done that.

>

> I find it hilarious that you think a local place

> should be pilloried for using authentic wording

> across it's menu when you think it's charging over

> the odds for something, yet when challenged you

> can provide no evidence whatsoever to back up your

> snobbish and outlandish claim other than what

> seems to be "because I believe it so".

Didn't say any restaurant should be pilloried for charging whatever they wish to charge for an item, but personally I wouldn't buy those items when other more complex and interesting dishes with authentic names are on the menu. Snails are snails, it's as simple as that really. Duck confit is good value for money comparably, for reasons I've given above. If you want to order snails be my guest, but it's not my choice.

Louisa.

[Louisa]

Jeremy Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Louisa Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > I presume you mean me? I'm sick to death of

> being

> > vilified for having an opinion about anything

> on

> > this forum. I won't say anything from now on.

>

> Yes. But I don't think I was vilifying you.

> Suggesting that a) restaurants call them

> "escargot" to achieve a higher price and b) people

> wouldn't eat them if they were listed as

> "snails"... is antagonistic and a little

> confrontational... no? It was not meant as an

> insult.

Jeremy that's my point! I wasn't trying to be antagonistic, I've made it clear that I love French restaurants - I was a patron at Le Moulin for many many years, and I am excited to try this new place. I don't see the point in snails when other nicer menu items are available which I would argue are better value for money. I have no issue with restaurants using authentic names for menu items, but when they're basic menu items it's clear that authentic names will make them sound more interesting.

>

> > Someone has already mentioned the ?2 mark for

> one snail at

> > restaurant price.

>

> A figure seemingly plucked out of thin air, which

> is then being used as the basis for an argument

> (sound familiar?). I reckon ?8-?10 pounds for 6 is

> typical.

I can't possibly say how much snails are per kilo, but yes someone did quote &2 per snail and I have no reason to disbelieve that. ?8/?10 for 6 makes my point for me perfectly!

Louisa.

[Earl Aelfheah]

For the snail lovers amongst you: http://www.them-apples.co.uk/2012/07/how-to-catch-clean-and-cook-garden-snails/

[Jeremy]

Louisa Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I wasn't trying to be antagonistic

I think you probably need to work on that a little bit more!

[Peckhampam]

At 1.30 pm Louisa wrote "I won't say anything from now on". My heart leapt up.......until 3pm when she posted twice.

[JoeLeg]

Louisa, at this point I'm happy to walk away from this knowing that not only do you have no idea what you're talking about, but you've talked yourself even further into a corner.

I will say this - in order for a restaurant to remain in business, it must charge a mark-up of AT LEAST three times the value of raw materials, and if it is able to then four times the value. That is to say, if you buy it for ?1 you need to charge at least ?3 when selling, and preferably more like ?4.

Only that level of mark-up will allow you to pay all the bills and wages plus keep money in the bank not only to pay yourself some level of income but to have cash reserves available for unforeseen occurrences. If you think these mark-ups are unreasonable then you are welcome to open your own place and try trading for less.

Snails cost ?9 for 6. ?1:50 each, which means they cost the kitchen at least 37p each. If they're imported from Europe then that price is entirely believable, given what the euro is doing. Ironically I suspect they're still cheaper than native products.

So there's a small bit of it. Feel free to keep thinking you know better, feel free to disparage a local business trying to offer something new, and please, please feel free to have the last word!

[Jah Lush]

Louisa Wrote:

I won't say anything from now on.

Louisa.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha and a ha! Yeah right. We all know that's a promise you won't be able to keep.

[Penguin68]

Using the posh expression 'Bourgogne' to describe an ordinary French region.

No doubt to justify the massively inflated costs of menu items !

I'm hoping this is ironic - but just to clarify, this is a restaurant that is branding itself as French - and uses a 'proper' French menu (with some more unusual terms e.g. - 'Merlu' - 'Hake' - translated into English) as part of its branding. 'Escargots de Bourgogne' is a simple description of what they are and where (in culinary terms) they come from (and would appear as such in any French menu) - as would Poulet de Bresse. The prices, as far as I can see, match pretty well prices for this quality and type of food elsewhere in suburban London. In rural France it would be much cheaper, of course. And home cooking - assuming you could source the ingredients - would also be cheaper.

Whilst they are happy to translate or explain they are positioning their guests as knowledgeable people who are comfortable with a real French Menu - hoping that their guests will feel flattered to be taken as such. This presumably is part of their segmentation strategy - people going there because it makes them feel good about themselves.

Rather like Franklin's - which uses often robust English terms - (I can recall 'Gloucester Old Spot' appearing without any need to indicate the type of animal this was) - as part of its branding.

[KidKruger]

Yeah P68 I was being ironic - with a dash of sarcasm ('sarcasme') thrown in for extra flavour.

[Penguin68]

Yeah P68 I was being ironic - I had assumed as much, based on your previous posts, but irony is not infrequently overlooked by some on this forum - and I wanted (I was hoping) to add to your point. But also perhaps to point out that branding and price points are all factors of marketing - sometimes you are (one is) not the prime target market segment - if not it is good to know that early to avoid disappointment. I don't expect every outlet, even in ED, to have me as a target. I also like all the clues I can get, if that's so, so that I can focus elsewhere.

[KrackersMaracas]

If this thread is actually about the completely imagined wholesale price of snails vs duck legs it needs to go in the lounge...

[Shaggy]

On a point of information, (and yes this probably should be lounged) the last time I bought snails for prepration from a supermarket in Burgundy, they cost me 11 euros for four dozen. They were the good quality, Burgundian ones that my mother-in-law recommends and cooks on a very regular basis.

There is a general shortage of snails from Burgundy, as the locals eat so many of them. Cheaper snails are easier to get hold of at a lower price. They tend to come from farms in Eastern Europe. All of Burgundy and most of France agree that they are nice, especially covered in garlic butter, but aren't of the same quality of the ones from Burgundy.

So, that's how much snails cost, and the statement "snails are snails" would be disputed by most people who regularly eat snails, including me.

[Penguin68]

Again, danger of lounging, but I know of at least one culinary snail farm in the UK (Canterbury) - but it supplies only local restaurants. It is also used for research - so the eating snails are a bye-product.

Edited to add - snail farming is the oldest recorded farming enterprise, based on archaeological remains. Predates all other animal husbandry, or growing of crops, at a time otherwise of exclusive hunter: gatherer activity.

[KidKruger]

"snail farming is the oldest recorded farming enterprise"

Must have been a bugger to catch them, I bet the farmers were fit !

[Louisa]

I guess it's my fault this whole thread is a million miles off topic now.

I don't wish to seek the last word JoeLeg, I just happened to have an opinion on snails which some people ran with for goading purposes. I've never been one to want the last word, I think we can leave it upto the good people of the forum to reach a conclusion on which item is better value for money, without dishing out (no pun intended), various confusing figures about wholesale cost. Anyway let's leave it there.

Louisa.

[DulwichFox]

Snail gets home from school. His shell is all cracked.

His mum asks him what happened to him ?

He tells his mum he had been attacked by a tortoise.

His mum asks him why he did not just run away. ?

The young snail replied. "I don't know. It all happened so quick"

[Jah Lush]

*Tumbleweed*

[Mick Mac]

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "snail farming is the oldest recorded farming

> enterprise"

>

> Must have been a bugger to catch them, I bet the

> farmers were fit !

They had snail dogs to do the rounding up

[maxxi]

KidKruger Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> "snail farming is the oldest recorded farming

> enterprise"

>

> Must have been a bugger to catch them, I bet the

> farmers were fit !

This is why free range snails were always more expensive.

[DovertheRoad]

Loving this thread people. Keep going....

[Earl Aelfheah]

Just get them from your garden. How to catch, clean and cook garden snails: http://www.them-apples.co.uk/2012/07/how-to-catch-clean-and-cook-garden-snails/