Martin McGuinness

[steveo]

Thanks for the history lessons your Lordship

I particularly enjoyed the patronising bit at the end

[Earl Aelfheah]

Lordship 516 Wrote:

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> rahrahrah Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > That's a mainly accurate account Lordship, but

> it

> > overstates one point.. that McGuiness used

> > 'necessary violence' - I think often the IRA

> used

> > quite unnecessary levels of violence against

> the

> > civilian populations and their own people.

>

> If you care to read what I wrote you will see I

> actually wrote carefully & deliberately...

>

> "what he considered necessary violence" - as he

> was quoted to have said on a number of occasions.

>

> On your point of expressing regret for

> victims...it took over 200 years for the British

> Government to express regret for their shameful

> behaviour in regard to the Great Famine...and over

> 40 years to apologize for the murders by the brave

> 1st Para on Bloody Sunday 1972...

>

> It takes time to heal. Just let's be happy the

> violence has diminished and we can be neighbours

> at peace.

The British state behaved terribly and took 200 years to express regret. Is that then the standard we hold others to?

[Lordship 516]

rahrahrah Wrote:

>

> The British state behaved terribly and took 200

> years to express regret. Is that then the standard

> we hold others to?

...your point?

[Earl Aelfheah]

You compare and contrast McGuinesses failure to express regret to that of the British state. The implication is that the failure of one party somehow mitigates the failure of the other. I would say that actually, both are failures.

[Lordship 516]

rahrahrah Wrote:

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> You compare and contrast McGuinesses failure to

> express regret to that of the British state. The

> implication is that the failure of one party

> somehow mitigates the failure of the other. I

> would say that actually, both are failures.

Nothing ever mitigates violence of any party against another; nor does their failure to express regret & apologize excuse another violent act.

McGuinness opted for peace and was commended by his previously implacable enemies - Iain Paisley & Peter Robinson - for his commitment to peace.

it is my view that McGuiness regarded the whole process as a 'work in progress' & that he avoided making any comment until he could be sure that the peace would endure & the opposing sides would not renege on their promises. Indeed, as his last political act, he brought down the NI government because of the Unionists going back on some of their promises as well as their corrupt use of public funds. There have been many false dawns in Ireland, mainly punctured by the duplicity of successive British governments.

There will be a time for expressing regret & making reconciliation; for now it is enough that the killings have stopped.

[Loz]

Lordship 516 Wrote:

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> Unfortunately history tells us that the car bomb was devised & deployed first by the Loyalist side,

> provided with the necessary materials from British Army supplies...

>

> 4 December 1971 - McGurk's Bar bombing

Did you make the bit in bold up??

[Otta]

Both sides did horrible things shocker.

[Lordship 516]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lordship 516 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Unfortunately history tells us that the car bomb

> was devised & deployed first by the Loyalist

> side,

> > provided with the necessary materials from

> British Army supplies...

> >

> > 4 December 1971 - McGurk's Bar bombing

>

> Did you make the bit in bold up??

From 1971 to 1973, a secret British Army unit, the Military Reaction Force (MRF), carried out undercover operations in Belfast. It killed and wounded a number of unarmed Catholic civilians in drive-by shootings. The British Army initially claimed the civilians had been armed, but no evidence was found to support that. Former MRF members later admitted that the unit shot unarmed people without warning, both IRA members and civilians. One member said, "We were not there to act like an army unit, we were there to act like a terror group". At first, many of the drive-by shootings were blamed on Protestant loyalists.

The 2009 book Killing For Britain, written by former UVF member 'John Black', claimed that the British undercover unit known as the Military Reaction Force or Military Reconnaissance Force (MRF) organized the bombing [of McGurks Bar]and helped the bombers get in and out of the area.

The Army's locally-recruited Ulster Defence Regiment (UDR) was almost wholly Protestant. Despite the vetting process, loyalist militants managed to enlist; mainly to obtain weapons, training and intelligence. A 1973 British Government document (uncovered in 2004), "Subversion in the UDR", suggested that 5?15% of UDR soldiers then were members of loyalist paramilitaries. The report said the UDR was the main source of weapons for those groups, although by 1973 weapons losses had dropped significantly, partly due to stricter controls. By 1990, at least 197 UDR soldiers had been convicted of loyalist terrorist offences and other serious crimes including bombings, kidnappings and assaults.

In 1977, the Army investigated a UDR battalion based at Girdwood Barracks, Belfast. The investigation found that 70 soldiers had links to the Ulster Volunteer Force (UVF), that thirty soldiers had fraudulently diverted up to ?47,000 to the UVF, and that UVF members socialized with soldiers in their mess. Following this, two soldiers were dismissed on security grounds. The investigation was halted after a senior officer claimed it was harming morale. Details of it were uncovered in 2011.

During the 1970s, the Glenanne gang ? a secret alliance of loyalist militants, British soldiers and RUC officers?carried out a string of attacks against Catholics in an area of Northern Ireland known as the "murder triangle". It also carried out some attacks in the Republic. 'Lethal Allies: British Collusion in Ireland' claims the group killed about 120 people, almost all of whom were reportedly uninvolved Catholic civilians. The Cassel Report investigated 76 murders attributed to the group and found evidence that soldiers and policemen were involved in 74 of those. One member, RUC officer John Weir, claimed his superiors knew of the collusion but allowed it to continue. The Cassel Report also said some senior officers knew of the crimes but did nothing to prevent, investigate or punish. Attacks attributed to the group include the Dublin and Monaghan bombings (1974), the Miami Showband killings (1975) and the Reavey and O'Dowd killings (1976)

....and much much more.

[Lordship 516]

...all the non-Protestant people, Catholic & others wanted was a reasonable chance of a decent life. It was not only denied them but the so-called Loyalists created an environment of hate & mayhem that removed all hope from non-Loyalists. They opposed normal civil rights that the rest of Britain took for granted and this gave birth to the awful carnage that followed.

Its over & hopefully the lessons can be a good lesson about what hate & division can do to any society.

[Loz]

Nice piece of cut and paste, but it does not back up your assertion that the British Army were involved in that particular bomb.

[Mick Mac]

Lordship516

I admire your efforts in getting the EDF to give a toss what the government did, but they don't.

They fall into the following categories

1) Don't believe and won't believe that the state did these things

2) Believe, but don't care that the state did these things

3) Those that say it was justified, or "both sides did terrible things" - forgetting that the state is not supposed to take sides, but to protect all groups within society equally

But there you go. It is what it is.

[Mick Mac]

And I'm sad that it'll be another 3 years before I can revisit this subject matter. I usually leave it about 3 years and then say it all over again. :)

[Mick Mac]

The last effort only lasted 2 pages - back in the day when people were called Keef and Brendan

http://www.eastdulwichforum.co.uk/forum/read.php?20,474981,page=1

[Lordship 516]

Loz Wrote:

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> Nice piece of cut and paste, but it does not back

> up your assertion that the British Army were

> involved in that particular bomb.

I suppose this counts for nothing....

The 2009 book Killing For Britain, written by former UVF member 'John Black', claimed that the British undercover unit known as the Military Reaction Force or Military Reconnaissance Force (MRF) organized the bombing [of McGurks Bar]and helped the bombers get in and out of the area.

...plus there is an ongoing enquiry by the Ombudsman due to more evidence becoming available late last year.

On almost every occasion these enquiries have evolved to somehow exonerate the brutality of the British Army [Widgery, Scarman ++++++++] dragging time out whilst everyone gets their stories straight in the whitewashing process.

The republican population welcomed the British Army but once ensconced within the cities the army turned on the unarmed civilians & colluded with the Loyalist animals. They reaped the whirlwind that followed. There was no justice available to non-Loyalist citizens & it is still suspect in regard to atrocities & miscarriages of justice. The Governments lie, the army lies, the police lie...all were & are at fault.

Farrar-Hockley reckoned that the IRA had about 3,000 operatives available but only used about 700 at any time - these kept 30,000 army & police occupied until the British Government finally saw the sense of negotiating a peace.

What we all need to do is simply remember the lesson of unfairness & injustice.

[TE44]

When governments believe they can separate themselves from behaviour they condemn and see as terrorism.There is denial to see the terror they cause. Whereas some terror groups will claim atrocities they were not involved with. Many people do not expect that behaviour from government but as history has shown, denial distorts.

Plastic pain (1983)

You've panicked the people with all of your lies,

Now, you say there's no need for alarm,

Out on the streets they are dying

When you said they would come to no harm.

You've shot with your bullets of rubber,

Killing innocent people going by,

You say you will fight, to do what is right,

Condemning the people who try.

plastic protection is not what we need,

You're outraged by voilence you say,

So why are you holding your guns now,

Why deny its your way.

[Loz]

Lordship 516 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Loz Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Nice piece of cut and paste, but it does not

> back

> > up your assertion that the British Army were

> > involved in that particular bomb.

>

> I suppose this counts for nothing....

>

> The 2009 book Killing For Britain, written by former UVF member 'John Black', claimed that the

> British undercover unit known as the Military Reaction Force or Military Reconnaissance Force

> (MRF) organized the bombing and helped the bombers get in and out of the area.

Well, I give that as much credence as you (and I, for that matter) would give a book by a British Army person that blamed it all on the UVF.

[Loz]

Mick Mac Wrote:

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> Lordship516

>

> I admire your efforts in getting the EDF to give a toss what the government did, but they don't.

>

> They fall into the following categories

>

> 1) Don't believe and won't believe that the state did these things

> 2) Believe, but don't care that the state did these things

> 3) Those that say it was justified, or "both sides did terrible things" - forgetting that the state

> is not supposed to take sides, but to protect all groups within society equally

I'd happily own up to 3b. And not being British or Irish, that's a view from a relative neutral.

And having watched the whole vicious, violent goings-on by all players in this mess from the other side of the planet, that was much my view then, too. All sides were in the wrong. Even when, on the odd occasion one of them were in the right, they did something mindless and violent to negate that.

The point is: it seems slightly missing the point to have a long debate about who was less of a violent arsehat. Whether you are a slightly less of an violent arsehat or a slightly more of an violent arsehat, it's worth remembering that, either way, you are still an violent arsehat.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

The two sides are not loyalists and republicans. The two sides are oppressors and the oppressed. Of course Tony Blair and Martin McGuinness can find common ground. They have so much in common!

[TE44]

Dogkennelhillbilly Wrote:

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> The two sides are not loyalists and republicans.

> The two sides are oppressors and the oppressed. Of

> course Tony Blair and Martin McGuinness can find

> common ground. They have so much in common!

No trial for blair though.

[steveo]

Do you fancy this Mick?

http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac166/Steve_Overbury/17457679_1756620404351829_3243192783237043364_n_zpswjzeyftb.jpg

[uncleglen]

I wonder why Blair converted to catholicism- I thought people got older and wiser....

[Lordship 516]

Loz Wrote:

> I'd happily own up to 3b. And not being British

> or Irish, that's a view from a relative neutral.

Unfortunately I have to say, also relatively uninformed. You watched nothing from the other side of the planet - you probably saw selected snippets & read carefully sanitized bits & pieces in the Murdoch & Black dominated press that served their Wall Street & other money centre masters well.

I grew up in Ireland in those times.

My uncle [aged 9] was shot by the Black & Tans in 1919 whilst he was collecting water from a spring well - target practice & a great day out from psycho-maniac murderers released from the British army & given license by Lloyd George, Churchill & co to terrorize & subdue the Irish.

I was a student on the NICRA March on 4th January 1969 [it was a Saturday so students from all over Ireland joined in] when the Paisley & Bunting thugs stoned & beat us with cudgels at Burntullet Bridge whilst the civilian police looked on, laughing & nudging each other at our distress.

I watched the British Embassy in Dublin burn down on 2nd February 1972 & felt the heat as it burned. There was only a little rain & no baton charge [as reported in British newspapers]. In fact the Garda? had instructions not to hinder the protesters [who were all well behaved but annoyed as a group] & cleared a path for the petrol bombers to get a good run through a gate in Merrion Square to throw the petrol bombs. It was a good decision by the Irish Government as it assuaged the public outcry - the Irish paid the bill. The crowd cleared away without trouble - the Garda? merely urged everybody to go home to dinner "C'mon lads, its over - we all have to go home to dinner" etc...

I was crossing O'Connell Bridge on 20th January 1973 [another Saturday] on my way to buy a present for my brother's birthday when the Sackville Place bomb went off and saw the roof of the car flying a couple of hundred feet in the air. I witnessed the walking wounded from that explosion - it wasn't pleasant.

I have lost family & friends & watched the silent maimed people who survived Loyalist attacks - this was before & after the IRA ever came into being. We had hundreds of years of that shit all in the name of profit for the worshipfull companies of London & their barons - hopefully it's over.

I just don't want to see or hear about this awfulness again or get phone calls from distraught people asking for help for their maimed friends & relatives. I have no personal bitterness towards English people or NI people & only wish everyone peace & freedom to live their life in a manner suitable to them.

The people directly affected on both sides cannot forget but they can forgive or at least ignore it and bear the scars silently so the next generation can grow in hope for a better shared future. It takes time & we all have to share the burden of recovery.

Telling someone to move on is just stupid so-called new age crap - telling them you understand their pain is civilized and helps the healing process.

[Lordship 516]

uncleglen Wrote:

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> I wonder why Blair converted to catholicism- I

> thought people got older and wiser....

Follow the money...

[TE44]

Lordship 516, I hope for peace to continue and

hope you and all those who suffered through these

times, find peace.

[Lordship 516]

TE44 Wrote:

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> Lordship 516, I hope for peace to continue and

> hope you and all those who suffered through these

> times, find peace.

Thank you for that. Personally I have peace and also for my family.

But for others on both sides I try to help by understanding their loss

& giving support & comfort.

We need to do the same for all in society, of all colours & creeds regarfless of their beliefs.

Tolerance, genuine tolerance for all will lead to a better life.