Martin McGuinness

[Loz]

Lordship 516 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Loz Wrote:

>

> > I'd happily own up to 3b. And not being British

> > or Irish, that's a view from a relative neutral.

>

> Unfortunately I have to say, also relatively uninformed. You watched nothing from the other

> side of the planet - you probably saw selected snippets & read carefully sanitized bits & pieces

> in the Murdoch & Black dominated press that served their Wall Street & other money centre masters

> well.

Please don't try to tell my what my information sources are - either now or 30-40 years ago. I actually come from an area where Murdoch did not tread, so you just don't know anything about me. Guessing doesn't work.

And please give up with the Occupy 101 horsecrap. You generally ruin some otherwise good points every time you wallow in it.

But, yes, maybe it does make me relatively uniformed. But also untainted and unbiased.

> I grew up in Ireland in those times.

Great, in a way. That makes you very informed, but also deeply unneutral.

So, informed or unbiased? Which is better? Well that's a matter of opinion, I suppose. We'll probably agree to disagree on that one.

[snipped some interesting stuff]

> The people directly affected on both sides cannot forget but they can forgive or at least ignore it and bear

> the scars silently so the next generation can grow in hope for a better shared future. It takes time & we

> all have to share the burden of recovery.

I think I read once there is a memorial in Hiroshima that says, "Forgive, but never forget". Seems apt here as well.

> Telling someone to move on is just stupid so-called new age crap - telling them you

> understand their pain is civilized and helps the healing process.

I don't actually recall telling you to move on.

[TE44]

Agree Lordship, tolerance is hand in hand with feeling and wanting to understand others, without fear it will shake our own being. This thread is about actions that should not be tolerated, but without understanding of the pain, which often causes intolerable situations, it will only be as simple as good or bad, right or wrong for some.

[Lordship 516]

Loz Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lordship 516 Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Loz Wrote:

> >

> > > I'd happily own up to 3b. And not being

> British

> > > or Irish, that's a view from a relative

> neutral.

> >

> > Unfortunately I have to say, also relatively

> uninformed. You watched nothing from the other

> > side of the planet - you probably saw selected

> snippets & read carefully sanitized bits & pieces

> > in the Murdoch & Black dominated press that

> served their Wall Street & other money centre

> masters

> > well.

>

> Please don't try to tell my what my information

> sources are - either now or 30-40 years ago. I

> actually come from an area where Murdoch did not

> tread, so you just don't know anything about me.

> Guessing doesn't work.

Whether you knew it or not, it was mainly regurgitated shit generated by the indigenous press barons that were pumping out the British government propaganda that fed your news...they have been doing for aeons; the names change but the ethos is the same - support the establishment money centre view.

> And please give up with the Occupy 101 horsecrap.

> You generally ruin some otherwise good points

> every time you wallow in it.

B*llix to this nonsense - I don't give a toss if the Americans know or don't know; this is just some concept thrash that is transcended by many hundreds of years of abuse by the British in Ireland. Not wallowing - just acknowledge the realpolitik that we were subjected to. It's what drew me to economics from UCD to LSE to MIT to Fudan University

> But, yes, maybe it does make me relatively

> uniformed. But also untainted and unbiased.

> > I grew up in Ireland in those times.

>

> Great, in a way. That makes you very informed,

> but also deeply unneutral

I had many chances & invitations to be involved both politically & in the IRA but maintained my independence; I avoided the political parties like the plague & worked through to what I always hope is a civilized world view but of course also remembering where I come from. I was born to a deeply catholic family but although educated in a monastery school remained untouched by religion of any sort - though I do believe in God, but also avoided religion.

> So, informed or unbiased? Which is better? Well

> that's a matter of opinion, I suppose. We'll

> probably agree to disagree on that one.

I am happy where I am & happy for you where you are also.

> > The people directly affected on both sides

> cannot forget but they can forgive or at least

> ignore it and bear

> > the scars silently so the next generation can

> grow in hope for a better shared future. It takes

> time & we

> > all have to share the burden of recovery.

>

> I think I read once there is a memorial in

> Hiroshima that says, "Forgive, but never forget".

> Seems apt here as well.

>

> > Telling someone to move on is just stupid

> so-called new age crap - telling them you

> > understand their pain is civilized and helps the

> healing process.

>

> I don't actually recall telling you to move on.

I never said or implied that YOU said that - it's the crap that much of society trot out to

people that have been traumatized - like as if they are suffering from a broken nail or burned their

hand on the oven. I watched my father grieve silently every day for his brother with good humour but

we all knew his anguish - it lasted for 50 years to the day he died but he never said one word except

to say a prayer for him every night - in Gaelic.

For the dispossessed whether they are in Ireland, Syria or Palestine or Iraq, they have to find their own way out

of the blackness that they find themselves in. I have been lucky - I avoided direct involvement;

It is my hope I can help people who haven't been so lucky where & when I can.

[Dogkennelhillbilly]

"So, informed or unbiased? Which is better?"

Informed, otherwise you don't have the slightest clue what you are talking about.

[Otta]

Mick Mac Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Lordship516

>

> I admire your efforts in getting the EDF to give a

> toss what the government did, but they don't.

>

> They fall into the following categories

>

> 1) Don't believe and won't believe that the state

> did these things

> 2) Believe, but don't care that the state did

> these things

> 3) Those that say it was justified, or "both sides

> did terrible things" - forgetting that the state

> is not supposed to take sides, but to protect all

> groups within society equally

I think you might be quoting me when you say "both sides did terrible things", and if so, you're quoting out of context. I said that (or something similar) about the IRA and Loyalist terror groups, not the state.

Personally I don't feel that any of those categories sums me up (or probably most people).

How about

4) Believe some of it (but would like to see evidence on some of it), think it was terrible, but wasn't born for most of it, and feels completely detatched from the British state of the day, and has no idea what I "should" feel about it. But still think MM was a nasty piece of work along with ALL violent terrorists.

I was pleased Cameron apologised on behalf of the state for Bloody Sunday, because it clearly meant a lot to many of those affected. But equally I thought "you were 6 or 7 at the time".

Lordship 516 Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> The people directly affected on both sides cannot

> forget but they can forgive or at least ignore it

> and bear the scars silently so the next generation

> can grow in hope for a better shared future. It

> takes time & we all have to share the burden of

> recovery.

So in all seriousness, do threads like this help with the moving on?

> Telling someone to move on is just stupid

> so-called new age crap - telling them you

> understand their pain is civilized and helps the

> healing process.

Telling someone you "understand their pain" if you werte not there or in a similar situation, is surely just empty bullshit. I couldn't agree more that we should be tolerant and listen and learn. But having read your post above about your experiences, I can't tell you I understand your pain, I have no idea what it was like.

[Lordship 516]

Apologies to all - I didn't intend to personalize the thread

- I just wanted to put some of the issues, timelines & attitudes in context..

I have no pain...nor did I need to recover from any personal trauma...but I know many who do..

For people who are suffering - you don't have to drool sympathy. Sometimes it is sufficient to pat their

shoulder & make them a cup of tea & sit with them in silence or talk rubbish about rugby or whatever.

Empathy comes in many formats.

[Lordship 516]

@ Mick Mac

MM - I understand where you come from. I rarely enter the public domain on this subject as there are few

either in the Uk or Ireland that could understand my view.

In the UK they feel I am biased towards the republicans Sinn Fein/IRA side.

In Ireland they think I am too hard on the republican attitude.

I regard McGuiness as a patriot & a great man - if you want to stop a runaway horse

you have to run a long way with its direction of travel before you can turn it around

- he did that. I don't have the same regard for Adams though I acknowledge his political

prowess; he outpaced the British & Loyalists at every step over the last 40 years.

The peace would not have been possible without Albert Reynolds who was uniquely placed

through many years of operating dance halls all over Ireland [inc NI] & through his

cat & dog food business. One of the people who supplied him with cans was a Paisley

DUP Loyalist that bridged his way to Paisley & hosted the first meeting in a back room

of his factory. Reynolds regularly went AWOL from his special branch minders to have secret

meetings all over NI. He is characterized as a bit of a huckster [which he was] but

people who mattered trusted his word & he delivered.Without his personal contacts &

reputation as a straight dealer no one would have come to the table. He also convinced

Clinton to leverage his influence that clinched the deal with the Irish Americans.

John Major was a brave man who rose above the political fray & risked his political

career to insist that the Good Friday Agreement was pushed through regardless of threats

of loss of the Unionist MPs votes..

Last but not least was Paisley who did suffer the end of his career but to a good

cause - he changed also in the interests of peace & delivered in tandem with McGuiness.

Blair & Ahern were merely carriers of the final message - important but the main

work was done before they arrived at the table. They made a lot of noise & PR fluff

but that was the nature of the beasts.

We have peace - history will tell the real story in time.

[Mick Mac]

Yes, i was quoting you Otta. As I feel that your stock response to any accusations about the actions of the state, is to say exactly that. Your comment came directly after a highlighted point about the army (state) supplying explosives for a bomb that killed Catholics. You dont seem to went to differentiate. Although i can see some softening of your stance maybe.

But I'm no longer particularly fussed. This subject is too difficult it seems for most people to accept. I do think its down to the British media presenting itself (UK) as almost wholly honourable for so long. We are what we Read. We trust our sources.

Eg: for 20 years my mum believed the UK government/media version of events on Bloody Sunday. Because she trusted the Government and the Widgery report and the media more than the people of Derry.

I note you refect on Bloody Sunday as a shameful day for the uk. But before say 2000 and without the public enquiry would you not just have believed the official version of events as it was protrayed here, then.

There are so many events that didnt get an enquiry, but people know what happened.

[JoeLeg]

Mick, you would be astonished at the number of people I met over the years who never, never believed that Bloody Sunday was anything other than a cover-up of titanic proportions. And that includes serving Army personnel who had been shot at by the IRA. They knew the official line was a colossal lie.

Do us all a favour and stop assuming that you know what we all think; you plainly don't.

[Mick Mac]

The post was Otta specific.

But as to the point of my post Joe Leg. Maybe you could fill us in on what other atrocities the army admit to internally?

Most other people have to rely on conventional sources of information, that's the point. And we are hostage to that reporting.

Please expand. Don't hold back.

[steveo]

Eight Mick!

[Alan Medic]

Hi Lordship. I appreciate a lot your contribution to this thread. I'm curious though how you know so much about what Albert got up to? I'm from where he lived. Your knowledge of the dog food factory suggests you must have had sources of information quite close to him. This is something John Major wrote about that time:

One of Reynolds's main achievements during his term as Taoiseach was in the peace process in the long-running conflict in Northern Ireland. Piecemeal negotiations had gone on during 1993 between Reynolds and British Prime Minister John Major resulting in the Anglo-Irish Agreement of 1993. On 15 December 1993 the Downing Street Declaration was signed in London. Reynolds remained involved in discussion with Northern nationalist parties, and along with John Hume and Gerry Adams, persuaded the IRA to call a complete ceasefire on 31 August 1994.[12] Major was quoted in The Guardian at the time as saying:

?

Let me now say something that may surprise you. Throughout the process, I was acutely conscious that IRA leaders were taking a risk, too: if Albert and I upset our supporters we might ? as Albert put it, be 'kicked out'. That was true, but the IRA's supporters were more deadly than our backbench colleagues. And their leaders were taking a risk too, possibly with their own lives.

[Lordship 516]

@Alan Medic

...see PM

[JoeLeg]

Mick Mac Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The post was Otta specific.

>

> But as to the point of my post Joe Leg. Maybe you

> could fill us in on what other atrocities the army

> admit to internally?

>

> Most other people have to rely on conventional

> sources of information, that's the point. And we

> are hostage to that reporting.

>

> Please expand. Don't hold back.

Well I'm happy to tell you what I know, though it's not I suspect what you want to hear.

I was part of an infantry battalion in the early 90's, and never deployed on Banner. However I had many conversations with older soldiers about it, and the SNCO's were particularly enlightening.

In a nutshell, I would say there was widespread awareness that the British had long been part of the problem rather than the solution, and that the Irish were the only ones with a right to determine their societies future. Pretty much every squaddy out there didn't want to be there, but the more experienced ones knew that they had to stay now until N Ireland had determined it's path forward.

It's a complicated spot to put soldiers into. A lesson that has been relearned (or possibly not) with great pain and suffering in the last 15 years is that comventionally trained soldiers are simply not the right tool to use when operating in a counter-insurgency environment. An infantry battalion is designed, if you'll pardon the hyperbole, to close with and kill the enemy. On the late 60's/early 70's they were all designed to meet Soviet hordes. Then they were told to go and be glorified police officers, for which they had neither the temperament nor the understanding. The results were, tragically, inevitable. But the British govt, flush with COIN victories in Malaysia and Borneo, thought they would prevail here, not realising they were marching into a quagmire with striking similarities to Vietnam, in that the opposition were fighting for something intangible, for their rights as human beings, for their home.

Atrocities? There were stories, tall tales, furtive insinuations about 14 Int Coy, 22, MI6 getting shady. A lot of that was hard to disseminate from the people trying to make themselves sound important. What was apparent was that by the early 90's it was all such a terrible mess of cyclical vengeance that peace seemed more important than anything else. The guys I spoke to painted a picture of a society sick of the IRA, sick of the soldiers, sick of the accusations and counter-accusations, and just wanting it to be OVER.

None of them were fooled by claims that the British only fired in self-defence, or anything else like that. They knew rules were getting broken, lines blurred, and the response was always the same. Don't send soldiers and then tell them they can't do what they were trained to do.

I've thought a lot about that over the years, and I still don't know how I feel about it. In an environment where you can't tell friend from foe unless there's literally a gun in their hand, the grey area becomes a huge gaping abyss that swallows everyone. Think about Death On The Rock, think about joyriders in the dark, young men trained to kill without question who don't understand how the senses get blurred when under stress and think they see stuff that isn't there. Everything I heard about told of a lot of people stuck in a situation none of them wanted (civilians as well as soldiers), with no idea how to untangle it.

The British did terrible things in Ireland, and then got the strategy wrong and did more terrible things. And then others did it too. And then no one knew how to end it.

Was the IRA compromised by MI6? Is that why they came to the table? Did they sense their support slipping? Or did they recognise the opportunity in front of them? Many books will be written on the subject, by people with more knowledge than me. All I know, all I can tell you, is that on the early 90's the squaddies on the bottom rung weren't fooled by the press or the officers. They had no illusions about the world they found themselves in, and most of them just wanted to keep out of trouble and get home.

[Lordship 516]

@ JoeLeg

Appreciate your candour & much of it coincides with feedback I have received

from friends in the army.

Thanks for that

[Mick Mac]

JoeLeg Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Mick Mac Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> The British did terrible things in Ireland, and

> then got the strategy wrong and did more terrible

> things. And then others did it too. And then no

> one knew how to end it.

Thanks Joe - appreciate the information a lot, and this is partly what I was suggesting in the OP and beyond. But aside from the army, the situation even before the army got anywhere near NI was gruesome in a different way.

You might agree that when I say that most people in England will have had their information from conventional sources (and I think UK media during the troubles was probably controlled or at least subject to veto by uk intelligence services/MOD) then "most people" doesn't include the army itself on the ground, or closely connected like yourself. People within the army, obviously knew exactly what was going on and can give useful feedback - but again are probably concerned about reputation / in some cases possible charges - even though some would be following instructions.

And for that reason the army has some reason/excuse, as being agents directed by a higher authority.

Thanks.

[Otta]

After JoeLeg?s post, I didn?t really want to comment further. But Mick Mack seems to have decided to target me personally, so I feel the need to respond.

Mick Mac Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Yes, i was quoting you Otta. As I feel that your

> stock response to any accusations about the

> actions of the state, is to say exactly that. Your

> comment came directly after a highlighted point

> about the army (state) supplying explosives for a

> bomb that killed Catholics. You dont seem to went

> to differentiate. Although i can see some

> softening of your stance maybe.

Classic sly Mick Mack twisting. The post was about car bombs being used by loyalists first. Yes the British Army were mentioned, but the point of the post was very specifically about loyalist groups using car bombs before the IRA, hence the ?both sides did horrible things shocker? comment from me. At no point have I said as much about the state, let alone saying it enough to make it a ?stock response? (Feel free to read back).

> But I'm no longer particularly fussed. This

> subject is too difficult it seems for most people

> to accept.

If only we all had your brains and wisdom.

> I note you reflect on Bloody Sunday as a shameful

> day for the uk. But before say 2000 and without

> the public enquiry would you not just have

> believed the official version of events as it was

> protrayed here, then.

> There are so many events that didnt get an

> enquiry, but people know what happened.

I will be totally honest here, I was born in 1978. I was a child in the 80s, I was a teenager in the 90s. In my consciousness Ireland was just a far away place (Lewisham seemed a mission from East Dulwich, the world was small) with people that tried to blow things up in London. I had no experience of it except for having to evacuate places in London due to bomb scares. Bloody Sunday was a cracking U2 song, the lyrics of which I didn?t know except the chorus. "Sunday Bloody Sundaaaaaay", Yeah!!! Bit like Black Sabbath, no idea what it was about (I was 5 when it came out).

I wasn?t even that switched on to the news in England, let alone Ireland. I cared about rock music, getting off my tits, and trying to meet girls. I then went to uni on Liverpool in 1996, and my best friends there were all, by chance, Irish (from all over), and only then did I really start to take an interest as they'd tell me stuff. Although it's certainly worth noting that they used to just take the piss out of the IRA, as in their eyes by then the IRA were just a bunch of thugs that would beat up known drug dealers (arguably a public service, but hardly freedom fighting).

So had this been a thread about Ireland and the troubles, I'd probably not have posted. I'd have read Lordship 516's posts with interest, and learned from them.

But this thread was about Martin McGuinness (and I don't believe at all that you always intended it to be a wider debate, I think that's your convenient change of tack). Whilst I may not have paid much attention as a child, I have looked at the history as an adult.

Lordship 516 makes the point above "if you want to stop a runaway horse you have to run a long way with its direction of travel before you can turn it around". That is an interesting way of wording it, and perhaps the ONLY way was violent retaliation, I am not qualified to say. But I am not a violent person, and I can never think of a man of violence as a great man.

And even if we agree (in theory) that some violent acts were a justified means to an end, I think there is ample proof that many people lost their lives completely unnecessarily, just to make a point.

NONE OF THAT IS TO SAY THAT THERE WERE NOT OTHER PEOPLE JUST AS BAD OR GUILTY, BUT WE WERE NOT TALKING ABOUT THEM IN THIS MARTIN MCGUINNESS THREAD. WHEN WE COME TO TALK ABOUT THEM I'LL SAY THE SAME.

And I have NEVER come at this from a defensive British/English perspective. That's all you making this an us & them type affair.

I'll bow out now unless addressed directly.

Lordship 516, thank you for your posts, they are both educational and considered. Others could learn a lot from you. And JoeLeg's post is a very interesting perspective.

[Otta]

Actually, slight correction. Before uni I had watched the film "In the name of the father", and then read "Proved Innocent" (on which the film was based), so I certainly didn't think the British had always acted honestly and honourably.

And I liked The Commitments a lot ;-)

[Lordship 516]

@ Otta

A Chara, [my friend]

Thank you also for your kind comments.

...you can see - dialogue, even if a little disagreeable, is helpful for understanding for everyone.

It will make for a better world where friends can differ but also share

Go raibh m?le maith agat [Thank you very much]

[Mick Mac]

Otta, you'll find very few of my posts on this thread are about Martin McGuinness. I didn't give him an RIP. The thread was intended to be about the conditions at the time. I say that hand on heart. If it wasn't him it would have been someone else

I actually intended my last post to you to be conciliatory! Pointing out that many others in NI trusted what was in the media. Apologies about the stock response, that didn't come across as intended

Amen. Ceasefire.

[Otta]

Word.

Many a thing gets lost in text.

[Earl Aelfheah]

[malumbu]

Lived in an Irish area during the 'troubles' and where there were provo pubs where there were collections for 'the cause' and when I moved here there was still an attitude as expressed in the first Stiff Little Fingers album "Paddy spud thick, thinks with his dick" - or words to that effect.

Never want to return to these days. We've moved on. Some good posts.

[????]

I lived in Queens Park in the early 80s and we used to drink on the Kilburn High Road with regular 'collections' - I took my mate who was a squaddie to Biddy Mulligans one night :). There was also a loyalist pub on the Finchley Road, The North Star, that got blown up!

[Mick Mac]

Soldiers aren't always the smartest. Their smart friends should look after them Quids.

I had a friend of a friend who was a squaddie and friend chose The Swan in Stockwell as the place to introduce us.

It was all going well until midnight, when the Swan played the Irish national anthem. He (ex squaddie) went on a mad rant outside and refused to come back in. 😁