"The Truth of the Lie" - the McCann case

[Sue]

I have been following this case almost from the beginning.

In view of the recent WikiLeak about the involvement of the British police (which had previously been almost completely ignored by the press in this country, along with many other things about the case, as they preferred to diss the Portuguese investigation), I just want to share this link, which is an English translation of Goncalo Amaral's book.

http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.com/

The McCanns had succeeded in obtaining a temporary ban on sales of this book in Portugal (Sr Amaral is the senior Portuguese detective who led the original investigation). However this has now been overturned following a successful appeal.

They are also continuing to pursue a libel case against Sr Amaral with the intention of making a great deal of money out of him. However in view of the Wikileak I doubt that this can now succeed.

There are many many internet forums discussing the case, but one respected site is:

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/

[paragon]

I am not suprised they are taking action. He is saying they killed their child or disposed of the body when she died accidentally. It would be pretty odd if they didn't sue given they haven't been convicted of anything.

I was aware that British police were assisting the investigation at the time from the mainstream media. I seem to remember there being friction between the two parties.

Don't really know what I think about the whole thing. Your listed blog is also accredited on the site as a help so I doubt it is impartial. Would like know more about the facts so will have a look into it.

Sue - do you think they killed her?

[Curmudgeon]

oh FGS - good for you following the case from the beginning and making your little judgements because you feel they must be guilty of something

it's great to be a Daily Mail reader isn't it? [huge, flashing sarcasm sign just in case of any doubt]

[Sue]

paragon Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

>

> Sue - do you think they killed her?

xxxxxxx

No. And Sr Amaral is not saying that either. He is repeating information which is already in the public domain from the police files, and repeating what was the conclusion of the official investigation.

My personal opinion, and I stress it's only that, having looked at what information is publicly available and appears to be credible (as opposed to many of the press reports) is that she probably died whilst left alone, probably from a fall onto a hard floor in the dark, and that if that did in fact happen then for whatever reason the parents somehow covered it up.

Curmudgeon, you are living up to your name, I see.

If you were a parent, and two highly trained and highly respected British sniffer dogs both independently alerted, one to blood and one to cadaver odour, at identical places in an apartment from where your child had gone missing and where nobody else had died, what would be your reaction?

Mine would be absolute despair. Theirs was to immediately discredit the dogs.

I'm interested in this case for various reasons, but I can fully understand other people not being, or thinking it's all old news. But please make constructive comments if you want to post.

[Keef]

Equally, you seem to have decided out of hand, that it's a nonsense.

[daizie]

Sue i agree with you entirely

[Sue]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Equally, you seem to have decided out of hand,

> that it's a nonsense.

xxxx

I'm assuming you're responding to Curmudgeon and not to me :))

[HAL9000]

Assuming Madeleine died at the earliest possible time: the child was seen in public at 1730 when Kate and Gerry McCann pick up their three children from afternoon tea at the Ocean Club until 2200 when Kate McCann checks on her children. Madeleine is gone.

Source: Who are the McCann tapas seven?

That's just 4.5 hours in the cool of the evening - is that enough time for a cadaver to leave traces of decomposition?

An old blood spill from an unrelated event - from the previous occupants, for example - is likely to have generated decomposition by-products.

As has been mentioned before: both of the McCanns are likely to have come into regular contact with cadavers as a result of their professions.

[DJKillaQueen]

All of these theories are just that, backed up by no conclusive evidence. Let's not forget, two parents have lost a child and until hard evidence proves they were somehow involved I think it s a bit unfair to make any judgements.

[Jeremy]

I agree with DJKQ... given the situation, all this speculation doesn't sit easily with me.

[Keef]

Sue Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Keef Wrote:

> --------------------------------------------------

> -----

> > Equally, you seem to have decided out of hand,

> > that it's a nonsense.

>

> xxxx

>

> I'm assuming you're responding to Curmudgeon and

> not to me :))

Yes I was, but equally, I'm with DJKQ and Jeremy on this one. It is certainly possible the parents have done wrong, but there is no real evidence to suggest it.

[Chick]

This thread is sick.

[mockney piers]

People in judgemental about stuff that doesn't fucking concern them shock.

[pk]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> It is certainly possible the parents

> have done wrong, but there is no real evidence to

> suggest it.

there's no dispute that they went out with their mates for a drink and a meal and left their children in an unlocked room out of sight and some distance away - it that's not 'wrong' i'd say it's at least foolish and reckless

that's not to say i don't have sympathy for them

[Keef]

Well yeah, but when I said "wrong", I was thinking along more sinister lines. Of that, there is no proof.

[Sue]

Keef Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Well yeah, but when I said "wrong", I was thinking

> along more sinister lines. Of that, there is no

> proof.

xxxxx

If there was proof, they'd have been prosecuted.

There is indicative (but not conclusive) evidence, plus evidence which is not admissible in a Portuguese court.

For example permission has to be sought to monitor a phone in advance of the calls/texts. Because obviously nobody knew that a child was going to disappear, evidence from mobile phone messages which could otherwise have been used, cannot be.

There is no evidence at all of an abduction.

Chick, you say this thread is sick. I think it is sicker that two parents left three little children under four in a dark, unlocked, unfamiliar apartment in a foreign country while they went out on the piss with their friends. And not just once - night after night.

I'm interested in finding out what happened, and why a lovely little girl (who was the same age as my oldest granddaughter is now) has disappeared.

I recognise that nobody may ever know - apart from those directly involved, of course. But I remain hopeful that the truth will out eventually.

[daizie]

Does anyone know if the McCanns friends ( the other parents) also left their kids alone at night ?

[pearl1]

Chick, I agree with you. This thread is sick.

[SeanMacGabhann]

sick is possibly too strong but it's not sitting comfortably with me either

I think some papes were sued for libel last year and it's probably worth people thinking before they post

[DJKillaQueen]

To be fair it wasn't quite the mindless act you describe. The villa was in clear sight of the Tapas place and the parents collectively checked on them periodically. Yes I agree leaving children that young unsupervised is wreckless but all the parents clearly thought their children were safe (albiet wrongly so). Intent is a very important consideration.

Certainly the evidence presented by the Inspector you refer to seems compelling but there are very good reasons why there has been no arrest or prosecution of the McCanns. The DNA evidence isn't conclusive. Also given that both the McCanns are Doctors, Cavadar is something they'll regularly come into contact with. I simply don't accept that any parent finding their child injured, or dead, would do anything but call an ambulance (especially two parents who are doctors - even though they'd have known full well if the child was dead). Even if Madeleine died in the apartment after an accident, there is no evidence to say that the McCanns were involved in any kind of cover up. The Hire Car was after all a hire car and explains why the DNA evidence taken from it was so low and contained multiple markers. It reminds me of the countless theories around the death of JFK when all along it was one man who pulled thrigger that day, and one man only. Lot's of factors that can be put together in any number of ways.

I think the McCanns are suffering enough for having lost their child (esp if the truth is that she died from an accident - and they have to live with that forever). It will make no difference to Madeleine if she is dead, whatever the truth is. One thing is certain though. The McCanns didn't leave their children in that apartment intending to see one of them die that night. Pursuing some vain hope of convicting them and putting yet two more children at the mercy of the care system seems pointless to me.

[DJKillaQueen]

Yes there have been several libel cases Sean which is why people should keep an open mind and remember that old adage 'innocent until proven guilty'....and that's proven beyond reasonable doubt.

[????]

*rummages round shed for pitchfork, torch and 'lynching' hat*

[DJKillaQueen]

You forgot the white sheet quids ::o

[Sue]

DJKillaQueen Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> To be fair it wasn't quite the mindless act you

> describe. The villa was in clear sight of the

> Tapas place

Actually the relevant part of it wasn't

and the parents collectively checked

> on them periodically.

There is only their word for when the checks were made, and they and their holiday pals "declined" to return to Portugal for a reconstruction of the night in question.

Yes I agree leaving children > that young unsupervised is wreckless but all the

> parents clearly thought their children were safe

> (albiet wrongly so). Intent is a very important

> consideration.

Well clearly they thought there was no danger of a child choking, falling, wandering out of the unlocked apartment or anything else - and these are doctors.

>

> Certainly the evidence presented by the Inspector

> you refer to seems compelling but there are very

> good reasons why there has been no arrest or

> prosecution of the McCanns.

Yes, there are - there is insufficient evidence which would stand up in a Portuguese court

The DNA evidence isn't

> conclusive.

This is a technical issue, but I understand that most of the markers matched Madeleine's and that in some countries this would have been sufficient in law. However I cannot follow all the scientific discussions about it, duh.

Also given that both the McCanns are

> Doctors, Cavadar is something they'll regularly

> come into contact with.

I understand that Gerry McCann's job does not involve contact with patients.

Kate McCann was a part-time GP who I understand claimed to have come into direct contact with SIX!! (I think) bodies in the week (I think) before they went on holiday. When the cadaver dog alerted to Madeleine's cuddly toy (which incidentally I understand that Kate McCann washed when she found out the sniffer dogs were coming to Portugal) she apparently claimed that this was because she took it to work. She took her child's toy with her when she was going to see dead bodies???

I simply don't accept that

> any parent finding their child injured, or dead,

> would do anything but call an ambulance

> (especially two parents who are doctors - even

> though they'd have known full well if the child

> was dead).

Well it would depend on what they felt they needed to hide about the circumstances in which such a thing had happened.

Even if Madeleine died in the apartment

> after an accident, there is no evidence to say

> that the McCanns were involved in any kind of

> cover up. The Hire Car was after all a hire car

> and explains why the DNA evidence taken from it

> was so low and contained multiple markers. It

> reminds me of the countless theories around the

> death of JFK when all along it was one man who

> pulled thrigger that day, and one man only. Lot's

> of factors that can be put together in any number

> of ways.

I think it is necessary to look at all the indicative factors together. The dogs alerted to that hire car and to no other car, in the same way that they alerted only to the McCann's apartment.

>

> I think the McCanns are suffering enough for

> having lost their child (esp if the truth is that

> she died from an accident - and they have to live

> with that forever). It will make no difference to

> Madeleine if she is dead, whatever the truth is.

> One thing is certain though. The McCanns didn't

> leave their children in that apartment intending

> to see one of them die that night. Pursuing some

> vain hope of convicting them and putting yet two

> more children at the mercy of the care system

> seems pointless to me.

If they had behaved differently then yes I would have agreed.

Seeing them courting what seems to me to be dangerously close to celebrity status, seeing them smiling and laughing for the press on what would have been Madeleine's fourth birthday, seeing them planning events to mark, for example, the first anniversary of Madeleine's disappearance long beforehand, when they could not have known she would not be found, seeing them hiring lawyers as soon as she disappeared, many many other things - they do not cause me to have sympathy for them, I'm afraid.

Sorry, maybe I'm just heartless, but my sympathies are all for the child.

[reggie]

The scary thing about suspicion is that once that thought is established then all manner of evidence comes along to back up that suspicion. It was the same with the 'dingo got my baby' case. Also the Ozzie outback murder. Both cases had loads of strange unanswered questions which will never be properly explained. Both defendants were unappealing, cold women.

Sue I think your anger at the parents is increasing your suspicion.