Rabbit fur coat discussion.

[Applespider]

aquarius moon Wrote:

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> I cannot understand people who say they love

> animals, but are prepared to eat them and wear

> their skins.

> They kind of 'like' animals, eg dogs, cats, pets

> etc. but are not true animal lovers.

I'm quite happy to say that I only like animals as opposed to loving them. I hadn't realised that 'Britain being a nation of animal lovers' was an incontrovertible rule. So I'm quite comfortable both eating animals and wearing their skins - and yes, I'm perfectly well aware of where animals come from having spent several summers staying on a farm growing up where I regularly helped feed the veal calves etc. I do believe that they should have a good life prior to slaughter - so I do check the provenance of my meat and I wouldn't eat foie gras since I believe that to be cruel.

So far as fur coats go, then I don't see why a fur coat is seen differently from a shearling one or a leather one. Mink, for example, are predatory vermin in this country. Our family has several fur coats/wraps that my grandmother bought in the 20s/30s - in the last few winters, we've worn them because they're warm and because the animals concerned have been dead for 80 years and leaving it in a wardrobe/destroying it ain't going to bring them back.

[dita-on-tees]

ooh if you fancy selling a mink wrap I would take it off your hands! I have always wanted one of them.

[DJKillaQueen]

Also it is thought that we evolved such large brains (which in turns makes us the intellectual species we are) because we began eating meat. Apes are vegetarian remember. And the entire food chain also works on Carnivorous lines. Sure there are vegetarian species but animals will just as easily kill for territorial gain as they will for food. I say all this because I've never understood the argument that humans eating meat is somehow immoral and it has always been the case that some humans would eat meat they didn't acutally kill.

We like to kid ourselves that we are somehow humane as a species when it is no more in our nature to be so than that of a wild animal.

Most of the reasons for poor farming practises around meat production are to do with there being too many of us on the planet. There is no option but for industrial food production and whilst it is absolutely right that unnecessarily cruel practises should be eradicated there's absolutely nothing wrong with using the fur and leather that comes from that food production.

After all.....the by-products from the production of synthetic alternatives are not exactly planet friendly either.

[RosieH]

Apes are vegetarian remember.

Don't think they are - chimps eat all sorts, including animals (and occasionally other chimps). I read the increase in brain size has to do with cooking food.

Which is mere pedantry, because I agree with you. We eat the meat. Animals eat the meat. What's the difference. Though I'm yet to see a chimp don a tiger-skin for the approbation of his chimp buddies.

[nashoi]

One difference is we have the ability to make an informed choice.

[Fabricio the Guido]

I am so sorry but I love a good debate and right now this thread is rocking.:))

[binary_star]

I am comfortable buying animal hides that I can think are by-products of the meat industry (leather, reindeer pelts for example). Furs in general, are primary products which is quite possibly why I have never worn or purchased real fur. I do eat meat but there are certain foods I absolutely will not eat and could not enjoy eating for various ethical/moral reasons, including: foie gras, veal, lobster and other crustaceans that are boiled alive, anything still alive. The more I learn about food production, the more foods are added to the banned list - shark fin is a recent addition for example.

Like anyone, I can quickly rationalise just about anything in order to appease my ego, but I can't justify the hypocrisy of my stance on animal products, except to say that it's an emotional rather than logical choice and that my omnivorisym is coupled with a fair amount of guilt. A lot of this guilt is associated with the fact that as humans, meat is farmed for us rather than hunted (or even scavenged) by us. It just seems a bit distasteful to me that as higher functioning organisms we are breeding lower functioning ones solely for the purpose of consumption. Again, I think more of an emotional thought process than logical one. In the West, we have alternatives to meat so I don't buy the survival argument...I for one, could survive quite easily without meat. On my part it's just laziness and ignorance that's maintaining my meat-eating habits. I am considering vegetarianism. But I had beef for dinner, so obviously not today :D

[SeanMacGabhann]

meat-eaters might survive without meat

The animals they eat won't be so lucky tho

[binary_star]

RosieH Wrote:

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> I read the increase in brain size has to do with

> cooking food.

I read it was because early humans had adapted to use tools to get at nutritious sources other scavengers and hunters couldn't reach on a carrion (e.g. bone marrow, brain). It makes sense that this in turn would lead to greater brain development, which in turn would lead to more complex tools for preparing and cooking food. Chimps have also been shown to use tools to scavenge for food. Either way, I don't think many people often find themselves in the position of having to smash open a femur or skull to get a bite to eat these days.

[binary_star]

SeanMacGabhann Wrote:

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> meat-eaters might survive without meat

>

> The animals they eat won't be so lucky tho

Now that would be the natural (selection) order of things. Ok, not quite but should "wild" cows exist? In terms of the breeds we've selectively bred for the dairy industry, probably not.

[Applespider]

binary_star - while it's true that white (Continental) veal has an element of cruelty to it and I'd join you in avoiding it, buying and eating British rose veal is a good thing to do. All dairy cows need to have a calf every year to enable their milk production to continue - female calves can be added to the dairy herd. But without a market for veal, the majority of male calves are just destroyed. Rose veal is so-called because it's pink - the result of muscle development since the calves aren't kept in crates and because their diet is more than just milk. And it does taste lovely... lightly pan-fried with a little garlic and a splash of white wine, or coated in breadcrumbs/parmesan...

[binary_star]

Thanks applespider, I am aware of rose veal, and too of ethical foie gras and the practice of stunning or freezing lobsters before boiling them but I was referring more to the traditional methods associated with these foods which in my opinion are cruel. And I don't think I've found myself in the position to eat the more humanely produced varieties.

Edit: not sure what happened to this post - managed to butcher it somehow - but it went something like the above.

[nashoi]

The cooked food theory stems from our having the smallest stomach to body mass ratio and largest brain to body mass ratio. Cooked food is partially processed so requires less energy to digest and allows more energy to be devoted to our enlarged brains. Presumably the truth is a combimation of all available theories.

[DJKillaQueen]

Apes are not the same as chimps Rosie lol but that aside.....chimps don't needs to buy a fur coat unless they find a bic razor of course and decide to experiment :))

[RosieH]

Chimps are one of the species of ape.

[DJKillaQueen]

Indeed they are.....not one of my brightest moments lol.....

*retires to corner and dons hat with a large D on it*

[RosieH]

Heh, DJKQ, I never thought I'd see the day... ;-)

[DJKillaQueen]

Only because it's you......lol....

[Alan Dale]

removed

[DJKillaQueen]

I'm giving odds of 2/7 on that Alan's post will have vanished by sunset.......! ;-)

[SeanMacGabhann]

by Alan himself you mean?

[Alan Dale]

removed

[DJKillaQueen]

Yes sean lol.....that's why the odds are so short...Admin would get odds of 100-1 :)

[Narnia]

I'm not sure I'm following the train of thought here.

[Jeremy]

Alan - why do you remove your posts? I don't get it. Is it some kind of joke?